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AUXLANG  December 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG December 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Esperanto's Slavic base (was more mudslinging)

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:54:59 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (218 lines)

Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
> =
 
> Je 3 dec 99, je 14:08, maf skribis:
> =
 
> > Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
> >
> > > I think we can take Charles's comments about Esperanto with at leas=
t a
> > > grain of salt. His comment, for instance, on the "great resemblance=
"
> > > between Esperanto and Polish (Bialystok dialect or any other -- tho=
ugh in
> > > Zamenhof's time, the major languages in Bialystok were Yiddish and =
Russian;
> > > Polish was a minority tongue) shows a profound (though, let us hope=
, not
> > > abiding) ignorance of (a) Esperanto, or (b) Polish, or (c) some com=
bination
> > > thereof.
> >
> > Okay, first I've only been in Bialystok (pronounced Bjawistok using E=
o alphabet
> > with w instead of u-breve) once for less than a day but I can say tha=
t in a lot of
> > ways it _still_ doesn't a very Polish city. I kept having the feeling=
 of a Polish
> > city being planted on top of something else (Russian or Belarussian I=
 suppose, very
> > little Yiddishness left there unlike some Polish cities).
> >
> Quite true. Prior to the 1940s, Bialystok was in fact at least half
> Jewish in population. But for some reason, early in the 1940s the
> Jewish population ... left. The lack of a Jewish substratum in
> Bialystok today has been commented on elsewhere. I don't think
> anybody needs to be told the reasons why it disappeared.
> =
 
> > Second, to me, Eo _definitely_ seems like simplified re-lexified Slav=
ic (not saying
> > that's necessarily bad). I've read Eo things be authors whose first l=
anguage isn't
> > Slavic and it _still_ seems really Slavic to me. I think some of the =
reasons for
> > this might be (in no special order).
> >
> Piron has pointed out elsewhere that Esperanto's _syntax_ is very
> heavily based on the _Russian_ (not Polish) syntax. As far as your
> specific points are concerned...
> =
 
> > a) dependence on a case system and milking the case system for all it=
's worth (ie
> > using different cases for different meanings in different contexts)
> =
 
> All this based on the -N ending???
> =
 
At least in early Esperanto you will se _helpi al iu_ where speakers of
Germanic languages will often use _Helpi iun_. If one studied Esperanto -=
 and
it has certainly been done - one would find a stronger influence from Pol=
ish
and Russian in early Esperanto writers than later on. =
 
 
My impression is - and it is very anecdotical and only based on my own
impressions - is that you could divide influences on Esperanto in a Slavi=
c,
Hungarian, German, French and English period. =
 
 
The Slavic and Hungarian period you would see through syntax, phase
construction, use of various verb suffixes. =
 
 
The German influence in a diminishing of the Slavic influence. A drift fr=
om
substituting the slavic case system like in _helpi al iu_ (and there are =
more
examples but I cannot get them just now). =
 
 
The French period is caracterized by skipping the hh as in _hhoro_
substituting it with _koruso_ (by hh I mean the h with ^ which you put ov=
er
the h. In French it is used to write _h=F4tel_ with ), _tehhniko_ for _te=
kniko_
etc. All the _klopodoj,
bulkoj etc_ are dispensed with. =
 
 
Even though Zamenhof took _birdo_ for _aves_ into his language (pronounce=
 
_beerdaw_ (RP), making the _au_ short and putting the stress on the _ee_.=
 It
is not _b=F6rdo_ - or let us say - berdo - as one might think - _she_ (s^=
i) and
_yes_ (jes) the real influx of English has come in our time, and I cannot=
 say
much about that as I lost interest in the langauge in the 70's.
 
> > b) the co-flation (right word?) of nouns and adjectives in a way that=
 makes the
> > sequence noun + adj. seem very much like two co-indexed nouns.
> =
 
> ??? If I understand this correctly, this is generally done in
> Esperanto by combining two nouns in apposition, often with a '-'
> separating them. Could you give an example of what you're talking
> about?
> =
 
> > c) general lack of sequence of tenses (I think this is a _very_ good =
thing, don't
> > get me wrong)
> =
 
> Kjell has also attributed this to the Polish influence. My own feeling
> is that this is a more logical method than we usually see in
> Western Europe, and could easily have been created by Z (who,
> like me, may have been bitten by the more traditional sequence of
> tenses in his Latin class) independently; the similarity could be
> coincidental. Or it could be due to Polish influence.
>
Slavic languages and Persian has that. It is OK by me.
 =
 
> > d) correalatives (closer to Polish in semantics and construction than=
 the equivalents in any other language I know)
> =
 
> Possible, and interesting if true. Could you give a Polish equivalent
> of the correlative table? I'd like to add it to the Russian and Greek
> equivalents that Waringhien quotes as being structurally similar.
>
Kioma horo estas? What time is it?
Kt=F3ra godzina
O tej porze =3D At that time
what - that
 
Kto moz.e to robic'? Who can do that?
Ten co chce. That one (more correct English I think would be _he who) wan=
ts to.
 
> > e) general noun dominance (the relative importance of verbs and nouns=
 varies from
> > language to language and Eo, like Slavic, seems to give nouns about a=
s much weight
> > as is possible in a language. I should also point out that there is a=
 very slow
> > long term process going on in Slavic languages where personal inflect=
ion is being
> > lost in verbs (and in Polish comic books, an "uncivilized" character =
will use verb
> > infinitives with no tense but the nominal case system is intact)
> =
 
> ??? Actually, Esperanto is structurally (particularly in the word-
> formation system) more favorable to verbs than to nouns; hence we
> see such modern tendencies as using *"brosilo" instead of "broso"
> or *"telefonilo" instead of "telefono", treating the root as an action
> root instead of an object root (which it officially is). (*) It's also =
the
> only language I'm familiar with (though there are certainly others) in
> which a sentence can consist only of a verb plus occasional
> modifiers ("Tondras!").
> =
 
_Tondras_ is at least Polish: Grzmi. Like Polish Esperanto doesn't have t=
o put
a formal subject (a subject being in the sentence just for form's sake) i=
n
such sentences like: Nejas (nedzhas), Pada s=B4nieg. Det sn=F6ar, It is s=
nowing. =
 
 
> The comic-book grammar you indicate is neither particularly Polish
> nor particularly new. Julio Baghy, if I remember correctly, more
> than once used precisely the same system in the speech of
> characters speaking a pidgin Esperanto back in the 1920s ("Ling
> veni kurson, lerni lingvon"). In English, of course, the infinitive bei=
ng
> a more complex structure, such "pidgin" speech is often shown by
> simply using the stem of the verb for all persons or (for "to be")
> selecting one form and using it for all persons ("He am crazy -- he
> get married!").
 
This must be a misunderstanding from people who translated Indian Stories=
 back
in the old times. Chingahgook spoke in infinitives in Swedish as I rememb=
er.
What I think happened was that people who learnt English as grown ups too=
k the
most frequent form, and that was _you_ + are, aint, come; I do come etc. =
and
when then using _he, she, it_ they would use the same word as they had he=
ard:
"Paleface come and see what have done." And this, I suppose was understoo=
d as
infinitives and not first person. The first time I reacted to that was wh=
en I
found that grown-up immigrants who learn Swedish will often use the prese=
nt
tence for infinitives as well, as Swedish verbs go like in Interlingua an=
d
Occidental ;-) as they have only one form for the present tence and it en=
ds in
an -r in 99,5 % of the cases. (Cfr English can and will and you will have=
 a
hunch about where the exceptions are to be found).
 
Text deleted.
 
Hoping this will interest someone.

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