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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  December 1999, Week 2

CONLANG December 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Ladino Proverbs and Sayings (Waaay long!)

From:

FFlores <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:45:59 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

Nik Taylor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
> andrew wrote:
 
Very interesting proverbs. I like Ladino!
 
> > 7. Roba pitas, besa _mesusot_.
> >         He steals bread, and kisses the mezuzah.
>=20
> I like this one, a proverb on hypocricy, I take it?
 
And what are _pitas_?
 
> > 17. Paciencia es paz y sciencia
> >         Patience is peace and wisdom.
>=20
> Great pun.
 
Yes, and you can keep it in Spanish too!
 
> > 19. La hambre y el frio traen a la puerta del enemigo.
> >         Cold and hunger bring one to the enemy's door.
>=20
> Hmm, I'd thought that Ladino kept the initial /f/'s that Spanish has
> lost, but _hambre_ here seems to disprove that.
 
I have a question here: I know that _hombre_ somehow came from
_homo_ (in some inflected form, I guess), and I think _hambre_
is cognate with 'famine' (is it _fame_ in Italian?). Do you know
how -br- got in there? (I assume hom-r >> hom-br as usual, but
why the -r?)
 
BTW _hambre_ is masculine in Spanish. _La_ becomes _el_ before
/a/, but we say _los hambres_.=20
 
> > 27. Lo das la mano, y quiere el pie.
> >         Give him an inch and he wants a foot.
>=20
> Interesting, _lo_ instead of _le_?
 
That's common in the speech of certain people here (sound very
very uneducated). OTOH Spaniards use _le_ for personal *direct*
objects (_le vi_ 'I saw him') while at least Rioplatense has
_lo_.
 
> > 34. Culebra que no mi morde, que viva mil an~os.
>=20
> _mi morde_, not _me morde_?  Interesting.
 
(Which would be _muerde_, in fact.)
 
> > 41. Non mi mires la color, mi'rami la savor.
>=20
> There's that _mi_ for _me_ again.  Interesting.  Interesting, also, tha=
t
> they've kept _non_
 
From the Quixote: '=A1Non fuyades, cobardes!' (=3D 'No huy=E1is'). :-)
 
> > 52. Caras vemos, corazones no conosemos.
>=20
> Question: does Ladino distinguish between {z} and {s}?  If so, it's
> interesting that they have _conosemos_ instead of _conocemos_
 
There was _conosca_ before, too.
 
> > 61. Cada uno se arrasca onde le come.
>=20
> Ah, kept the old _onde_.
 
Oh! Was it _onde_ in the first place? _De onde_?
Many people say /onde/ nowadays; and _adonde_ tends to become /ande/.
It seems we're reiterating the sound change cycle from Latin to Spanish
here; the medial voiced stops (already become fricatives) are turning
into approximants or disappearing altogether.
 
> > 65. Bendicha tripa de madre que tal fijo pario'.
>=20
> Hmm, why _fijo_ here, but _hija_ in 26?
 
And _tripa_? You know, the first time I read this I thought this
was an insult or something; in my dialect _pario'_ (and to a lesser
extent all the forms of _parir_) are considered pretty 'strong'
(not rude or taboo, but avoided). You can imagine why (take out
_bendicha_ and replace etc. etc.)
 
>=20
> > 67. Fas el bien, no mires a quien.
>=20
> Hmm, interesting, another /f/ retained.
 
And another <s> for <z> (or <c> or <=E7>).
 
> > 85. Los fijos al rubi', el marido al tcharchi'.
>=20
> Why is it spelt _tcharchi'_?
 
And what is it?
 
Very interesting indeed!
 
 
--Pablo Flores
  http://draseleq.conlang.org/

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