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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  December 1999, Week 2

CONLANG December 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Ladino Proverbs and Sayings (Waaay long!)

From:

"Grandsire, C.A." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:53:12 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (133 lines)

FFlores wrote:
>
> Very interesting proverbs. I like Ladino!
>
> > > 7. Roba pitas, besa _mesusot_.
> > >         He steals bread, and kisses the mezuzah.
> >
> > I like this one, a proverb on hypocricy, I take it?
>
> And what are _pitas_?
>
 
        It's a kind of bread, very often found in the Eastern and Southern
parts of the Mediterranean Sea, or in Middle East. I like this bread.
 
> > > 17. Paciencia es paz y sciencia
> > >         Patience is peace and wisdom.
> >
> > Great pun.
>
> Yes, and you can keep it in Spanish too!
>
 
        I like it very much too! As far as I can see, Ladino is very near to
Spanish. I would say a dialect, or is it considered a separate language?
 
> > > 19. La hambre y el frio traen a la puerta del enemigo.
> > >         Cold and hunger bring one to the enemy's door.
> >
> > Hmm, I'd thought that Ladino kept the initial /f/'s that Spanish has
> > lost, but _hambre_ here seems to disprove that.
>
> I have a question here: I know that _hombre_ somehow came from
> _homo_ (in some inflected form, I guess), and I think _hambre_
> is cognate with 'famine' (is it _fame_ in Italian?). Do you know
> how -br- got in there? (I assume hom-r >> hom-br as usual, but
> why the -r?)
>
 
        The inflection of _homo_ is based on the stem _homin-_ (from genitive
_hominis_) as the one of the word "famine" comes from (I think it's
_famin-_). So it's not unlikely that hombre and hambre look alike. As
for the origin of the -r, I would see the following evolution:
- loss of the medial i
- loss of the the nasalisation of 'n' in the cluster 'mn' by
dissimilation, leading to a flap 'r' (I tried it and find it very
likely).
- insertion of a 'b' between the m and the r as usual.
 
        Well, just a guess from a non-linguist who knows nearly nothing of the
evolution of Spanish from Latin. :)
 
> BTW _hambre_ is masculine in Spanish. _La_ becomes _el_ before
> /a/, but we say _los hambres_.
>
> > > 27. Lo das la mano, y quiere el pie.
> > >         Give him an inch and he wants a foot.
> >
> > Interesting, _lo_ instead of _le_?
>
> That's common in the speech of certain people here (sound very
> very uneducated). OTOH Spaniards use _le_ for personal *direct*
> objects (_le vi_ 'I saw him') while at least Rioplatense has
> _lo_.
>
 
        I've heard of those phenomena as loi'smo, le'ismo (like the use of vos
instead of tu' as voi'smo) in my Spanish classes.
 
> > > 34. Culebra que no mi morde, que viva mil an~os.
> >
> > _mi morde_, not _me morde_?  Interesting.
>
> (Which would be _muerde_, in fact.)
>
> > > 41. Non mi mires la color, mi'rami la savor.
> >
> > There's that _mi_ for _me_ again.  Interesting.  Interesting, also, that
> > they've kept _non_
>
> >From the Quixote: '!Non fuyades, cobardes!' (= 'No huyais'). :-)
>
 
        Was that the speech of the time when it is supposed to take place, or
is it again a way to show the madness of Quixote, misusing "old" Spanish
to feel important?
 
> > > 52. Caras vemos, corazones no conosemos.
> >
> > Question: does Ladino distinguish between {z} and {s}?  If so, it's
> > interesting that they have _conosemos_ instead of _conocemos_
>
> There was _conosca_ before, too.
>
 
        Strange that at some places they keep the z and the c and not at
others.
 
> >
> > > 67. Fas el bien, no mires a quien.
> >
> > Hmm, interesting, another /f/ retained.
>
> And another <s> for <z> (or <c> or <g>).
>
> > > 85. Los fijos al rubi', el marido al tcharchi'.
> >
> > Why is it spelt _tcharchi'_?
>
> And what is it?
>
 
        I second that question (and what is rubi' already?)
 
> Very interesting indeed!
>
 
        Indeed!
 
> --Pablo Flores
>   http://draseleq.conlang.org/
 
--
        Christophe Grandsire
 
        Philips Research Laboratories --  Building WB 145
        Prof. Holstlaan 4
        5656 AA Eindhoven
        The Netherlands
 
        Phone:  +31-40-27-45006
        E-mail: [log in to unmask]

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