>>> Paul Bennett <[log in to unmask]> 02/23 7:35  >>>
On 23 Feb 00, at 1:37, Muke Tever wrote:

> > > Is there a natlang precedent (and/or existing name?)
> > > for the 'hissing'
> > > consonant (fricative?) produced by keeping the
> > > tongue in a lax / schwa-like
> > > position, and producing either voiced or voiceless
> > > breath with the teeth
> > > together and causing friction?
> > > It sounds to me somewhere between /S/ and /f/ (or
> > > /Z/ and /v/), but is
> > > obviously a totally different sound.

> Gotta quote here, from a book quoting a book quoting a couple of other
> people...
>     "Passy (1899) describes a fricative in the Shapsug dialect of Adyghe, a
> Circassian language, which has 'the lips fully open, the teeth clenched and
> the tongue flat, the air passing between the teeth; the sound is
> intermediate between /S/ and /f/.'

>     "This sound was noticed independently by Catford who comments that 'the
> Adyghe (Circassian) bidental fricative is, in fact, a variant of /x/,
> occurring for the /x/ in such words as /x@/ "six" and /dax@/ "pretty" in the
> Black Sea sub-dialect of Shapsug'."

> ...Is it like that?

It's exactly like that!  Thanks for these examples and for confirming Ed's
choice of the word 'bidental', which I was previously 'iffy' on.

I think that all the other phones that I've decided on have fairly safe
precedents, and can be adequately described using conventional terminology.

An enormous grid of consonants and a horrible list of rules for choosing
vowel allophones will surely both be forthcoming.  Watch this space...


Just out of interest, does anyone know why the sound described is an
allophone of /x/ in Adyghe?

That's funny, last weeks I've been busy with the Duzce-Shapsug dialect
of Circassian. I used the slot system as basis for Leropho, the language
I made for Ed.
In the discriptions I have available no interdentals are mentioned.
However, there is a rounded alveolo-palatalsyllable [s^_0] that comes
close to the description. E.g. /s^_0@-k'_0e/ = 2pl-go= they go, sounds
like whistling a schwa. This sounds is acoustically (to my ears) very similar
to' [x^], the fronted velar fricative (almost ich-laut)

I'll see if i can look up the words for six and pretty and see if the phonemes
are the same.