At 4:13 pm +0200 5/5/00, BP Jonsson wrote:
>At 14:51 03.5.2000 -0400, Nik Taylor wrote:
>>much as French words
>>with /Z/ used to be usually borrowed as /dZ/
>French itself used to have /dZ/ in those words.  There's a de-affrication
>been going on south of the channel, which hit also Old French /tS/ > /S/
>written {ch}, and /ts/,/dz/ {z}.
>Ray probably beat me to this, but WTH! :-)

Not this time  :)

I've got a bit behind catching up on emails - am now trashing a lot ;)

But Philip's absolutely correct.  The words were borrowed as having /dZ/
because that is what they actually had!

As Philip says, it's French that changed in this regard; English may have
changed the vowels, but its preserved the original consonants in words like:
courage (actual both English and French have changed the /r/ :)

etc., etc.

Only with /ts/, written as 'soft-c' or, in Old French, as {z}, have both
languages changed the original sound to /s/ or (when final in French, to
zero), e.g.
ceil (verb: "to overlay, provide with a ceiling") --> ceiling
cinque (five on a die, cards etc), Cinque Ports /sINk/

The old cry of town criers "oyez" is the Old French /o'jets/ (plural
imperative: "hear (ye)!").  The traditional English pronunciation is
homophonous with "Oh yes!".

Alas, where tradition has elapsed, one now too often hears the false
frenchification /o'jei/ - correct modern French is, of course, /waje/.


A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]