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At 6:37 pm -0400 6/5/00, John Cowan wrote:
>Raymond Brown scripsit:
>>
>> At 7:34 pm -0400 5/5/00, Nik Taylor wrote:
>> >BP Jonsson wrote:
>> >> French itself used to have /dZ/ in those words.
>> >
>> >Right, but even after French had de-affricated, English still borrowed
>> >/Z/ as /dZ/ until we evolved our own /Z/.
>>
>>   Examples?
>
>"Garage".  /Z/ in AE, but /dZ/ in most other versions.

Yes, but 'camouflage', 'mirage' & 'collage' are all final-stressed ending
in /a:Z/.  And my wife, who is a 100% Brit, says /g&'ra:Z/.

It was _borrowed_ with /Z/.

What happens _after_ borrowing depends on how much the word gets
assimilated to popular speech.  When 'café' was borrowed it was pronounced
/k&'fej/ or even /ka'fe/; it is now pronounce in Britain as /'k&fi/ since
it has entered popular speech.

So with the growth of car ownership, the early 20th cent. /g&'ra:Z/ has
become for most (tho by no mreans all) Brits /'g&rIdZ/.  But it wasn't
borrowed as such.

'hotel' was borrowed without initial /h/.  My wife's grandmother, who was
very "proper", always said /o'tEl/ [sic] & that pronunciation was common in
the early 20th cent.   But now /h/ is almost universally pronounced, even
by Americans, I believe.   But it wasn't borrowed that way.

But Nick has said quite unequivocably: "Right, but even after French had
de-affricated, English still borrowed /Z/ as /dZ/ until we evolved our own
/Z/."

I.e. In the period _before_ /Z/ developed in English but _after_ French had
de-affricated /dZ/ to /Z/, French words with /Z/ were borrowed as tho with
/dZ/.  'Garage' does not fit that category; the change from /Z/ to /dZ/
took place within English & long after English itself had acquired /Z/.

So, examples?

Ray.

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A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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