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Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: "Dennis Paul Himes" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > [Muke:]
> > > > > If "to be born" was _lexically_ an *active* verb (like Sp.
> > > > > <nacer>), then its
> > > > > passive would mean something like "to be given birth to".
> > > > >
> > > > >     Maria nació.   "Mary was born."
> > > > >     Maria se nació.  "Mary was born [PASS]"
> >
> >     ... nacerse is not passive.  It's reflexive.
>
> 'Reflexive' is the name for the *form*, and possibly the major use of it,
> but its functions range from reflexive to middle to passive.
>
> The canonical example English speakers know is "se habla español",
> 'Spanish is spoken'.

    It's odd, but I never would have interpreted that as a passive, despite
the fact that it gets translated into a passive in English.  I think of that
as the impersonal subject use of the reflexive, as in "One speaks Spanish."
It obviously can be interpreted as passive, though (hence the English
translation).
    However, in "Se habla español" the subject is the object of the active
form of the sentence, "Alguien habla español".  That is not true of "María
se nació".  Both "María se nació" and "María nació" have the same
subject.  "Nacer" is not a transitive verb, as "hablar" is, and, to me at
least, "passive" (as a "function") doesn't have a meaning when applied to
an intransitive verb.

 ===========================================================================

             Dennis Paul Himes    <>    [log in to unmask]
             homepage: http://www.connix.com/~dennis/dennis.htm
        Gladilatian page: http://www.connix.com/~dennis/glad/lang.htm

Disclaimer: "True, I talk of dreams; which are the children of an idle
brain, begot of nothing but vain fantasy; which is as thin of substance as
the air."                      - Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene iv Verse 96-99