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On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:32:52 +0100, Boudewijn Rempt <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

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>On Tuesday 18 December 2001 20:18, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Christopher B Wright wrote:
>> > Then why did His followers die for their beliefs? (Puzzled frown.)
People
>> > don't die for what they know to be a lie. (It was documented by the
>> > Romans that eleven of the twelve apostles were brutally martyred.)
>>
>> Christians are always saying this.  I wonder if they believe it.
>>
>
>I wouldn't want to swear to the exact number -- my knowledge of the history
>of the early church isn't encyclopedic. But I hate it if someone entirely
>outside the tradition questions my belief. Look, Patrick, I won't question
>your beliefs -- please refrain from wondering whether people believe what
>they say they believe. It's discourteous, because it implies they are
>liars.

So what? I believe practically everybody is a liar. Society demands it.
But it's about a billion times more discourteous to continue discussing
this topic on this list, especially at a time when in boxes are already
overflowing.

WARNING! IF I SEE ANY NEW MESSAGES SPOUTING CHRISTIAN IMPERIALISM THE NEXT
TIME I CHECK THE LIST, SOME PEOPLE WILL FEEL THE FLAMES OF HELL THEY WISH
ON OTHERS!

Jeffrey Scott Jones

>
>> People are perverse creatures and will die for the silliest things.  An
>> appeal to some kind of "human nature" is about the weakest lukewarm
>> argument one could find.  Even God spits the lukewarm out of his mouth.
>>
>
>For a gentle martyr, one who didn't oppose his death sentence, and didn't
>murder other people with his death, read the letter Ignatius, Bishop of
>Antioch, wrote when he was conveyed to Rome. You can find the text in
>the volume I of the Loeb edition of the Apostolic Fathers.
>
>> > The Gospels were written within (about) forty years of Jesus' death
>> > (which is a matter of Roman record) by those who saw what happened.
>> > Either they wrote the truth, or they got together and wrote a bunch of
>> > lies and then died to defend those lies. (Many things in the Gospels
are
>> > shared between them.)
>>
>> And many things are not.
>
>As many things between the Washington Post and the Guardian aren't
>shared -- or even between two retelling of the same story by the
>same person.
>
>- --
>Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org