Stone Gordonssen wrote: >> > I'm just saying that "I gave the dog to John" is basically the same >> > sentence as "I gave the dog"...the recipient is optionally supplied by >> > means of an oblique (a prepositional phrase). In "I gave John the dog", >> > on the other hand, no arguments are oblique, so in this case "gave" is >> > ditransitive. It's sort of like the difference between "The door opens" >> > and "He opens the door", except in regards to the indirect object. Not >> > sure if that made it any clearer... >> >> No, 'John' is oblique. The fact that it's not marked does not make it >> any >> less so. It's oblicity(??) is shown by word-order, I think. > > > Interesting. I tend to agree with Joe. To my mind, weather or one sentence > is labelled "ditransitive", "John" still seems to be as much an oblique (or > indirect object) by position/convention as does "to John" by preposition, > thought there is an inner part of me which says that I parse both a bit > differently. Hmm. > > I also don't follow the "The door opens" allusion, esp. since one can't, by > convention, say in English "He opens me the door". I suspect this is > because > I see "the door opens" as "the door opens (itself)". Well, I was comparing the transitive/ditransitive distinction in "give" to the intransitive/transitive distinction in "open". I wasn't claiming that "open" was ditransitive...sorry if I gave that impression. Nik's explanation is a lot clearer than mine. > Verbs like "see" are still ill-defined in Bes Dis'z as I tried to constrict > it to use only transitive verbs. For "I see him" I cheat by using "He is > seen by me" - "rafíd sil" - as "I see him" - "sifíd san" translates more as > "I cause him to be seen". I've never liked this, but is a bit too late > to go > about shifting verb forms in Bez Dis'z. ::shrug:: We live and learn. Not sure what's going on in those examples. I'm not familiar with your language...are "rafíd" and "sifíd" the verbs? Could you give interlinears?