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On Monday 21 July 2003 05:51 am, Christopher Wright wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:33:00 -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor
<[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > So, KÚlen has five stops:
> > p (labial)    t (dental)    ts* (alveolar)    c (palatal)    k
(velar)
> > (*ts is often just [s] but is still counted as a stop.)
> > I've been contemplating some sound change with the goal of getting
rid
> > of [p]. Which would be more reasonable?:
> >
> > p    t   ts   c   k     becoming
> > k    t    ts   c   q     or becoming
> > kw  t   ts   c   k
>
> On Sunday 20 July 2003 10:23 pm, Roger Mills wrote:
> > Thomas Wier wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I think probably the first set, where *p becomes /k/.  Arapaho
> > > underwent a similar process on its way from Proto-Algonkian.
> > > It's reasonable to think that a pull-chain effect might have
> > > started with *k becoming [q], leaving an opening for *p to fill.
> > > It's an unusual change, but I know of no natural language that
> > > would take *p and turn it into [kw] -- quite the opposite change
> > > would be expected.
> > Agreed.  Evidently you want to keep it as a stop; my first thought
was
> > for
> > it to fricative [P] or [f], then/or > h, then/or 0. All widely
attested.
>
> Sylvia Sotomayor again:
> >That is possible, though I'm getting rid of [m], too. [w] will stay,
> >however. I'm thinking of turning [l] or maybe [r] into something else
> >as well. Any ideas?
>
> For getting rid of /p/, I'd probably collapse /p/ and /k/ rather than
> turning /k/ to /q/, though I'm no linguist yet, so I don't know how
> plausible that is. If it isn't, then I'd use those two sound changes
and
> collapse /q/ with /k/.
>
> It would appear that the KÚle˝i have long mouths with which to better
> distinguish between these stops, no?
>
> As for /m/, you could possibly merge it with /w/. I have no idea
whether
> that is reasonable, though I hope that this list will come down with
the
> giant Stick of Corrections if it is not. I have heard it said that
> nasalization flows somewhat, and if the KÚle˝i only stop closing their
> mouths all the way, the sound should be /w~/.
>
> Devoice /l/, tap /r/. I like those sounds, even if I can't pronounce
them
> well.
>
> ~Wright
>

I *like* Nasalized W! Now, how do I represent it orthographically????
Hmmm.

--
Sylvia Sotomayor
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KÚlen language info can be found at:
http://home.netcom.com/~sylvia1/Kelen/kelen.html

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