En réponse à Philippe Caquant : >I don't speak Basque, but I have records from a Basque >singer, Peio Serbielle. If i look at the written text >and listen to the voice, than clearly: >- all written 'z' are pronounced like 's' Logical, the Basque 'z' indicates the same sound as the French 's'. >- all written 's' are pronounced like 'sh', or S, if >you prefer >- I can hardly hear any difference between the written >s and written x, also pronounced S. The same when they >are preceded by t (ts, tx > tsh). Then you have a problem listening, or the guy has a problem pronouncing them. Since Castillan 's' and Basque 's' are identical, you're basically saying that the Castillan 's' is pronounced [S]. You basically changed Spanish into Portuguese ;) (Andalucian not withstanding ;) ). >But one could argue that Basque was not his mother >tongue, I'm not quite sure. Anyway, it's not mine. That could explain it. I can produce the Basque 's' (though not reliably in sentences), and although pronounced at the point of articulation of 'z', it does have a 'x'-"quality" in it. Somebody with little training could confuse them. >I guess Basque is more spoken on yonder side of the >border than in France. It has an official status >there, but not in France. Indeed. >Interesting to note that, while Spanish transforms 'f' >into 'h', Russian transforms 'h' into 'g' (gospital = >[military] hospital). I thought they would rather transform it into [x], since that's what they do when trying to learn a language containing [h]... __________________________________________________________________________ En réponse à Chris Bates : >*Sigh* Its at times like this that I wish I had a time machine... I'd >love to know and see so many things about the past. It'd be entering an >alien world without leaving Earth to visit the past. When you get one, don't forget to reserve me a seat! :) >I don't think I've ever seen Moten.... examples, Christophe? :) Any >sentence you like. It's one of the few languages of mine with a website presence. The pages are only in French, but simple enough for most purposes. So you just need to check my site :) . Also, IIRC in the first relay I translated the text into Moten, so you may want to check that, and the Babel text is available on my site in Moten :) . >They seem to straddle the boundary to me. Although I think a lot of >linguistics is like that... we're trying to impose discrete categories >on a continuous spectrum. Indeed... >Don't you speak Basque Christophe? Nope :( . I just have learned about it on and off for the past 15 years ;) . I cannot speak it, but I know quite a bit about it... ___________________________________________________________________________ En réponse à John Cowan : > > > > Incorrect: some Ibero-Romance languages went all the way. Gascon has > > "huek" for "fire" (Spanish fuego). > >I should have said "Iberian Romance"; that is, Romance languages >spoken on the Iberian peninsula. What are the isoglosses that >have Iberian Romance and Catalan-Occitan on one side and the >Gallo-Romance languages on the other, anyway? We don't really know whether they even exist ;) . But I've always heard that Gascon was Ibero-Romance rather than Gallo-Romance... It seems the three groups Ibero-Romance, Gallo-Romance and Italo-Romance are just one big continuum ;) . >As spoken in the North, anyhow. Andalusia (and consequently the >Islands and America) have always had ordinary s. fair enough. Basque never went that South ;) . _______________________________________________________________________ En réponse à J. 'Mach' Wust : >The f > h change hasn't occurred in any Ibero-Romance but in Castilian >(Spanish), as far as I know. Appearently, it also occurs in Gascon but this >isn't precisely an Ibero-Romance, even though the Aranés dialect is spoken >in Spain. Portuguese and Catalan preserve the _f_, and so do other northern >dialects like Asturian, Aragonés and Galician. According to Wikipedia, Spanish and Gascon both lost initial /f/ (but at different levels, Gascon more completely than Spanish) due to Basque influence. Not sure how to take that, but it's geographically sound... Christophe Grandsire. http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr You need a straight mind to invent a twisted conlang.