On Sunday, September 5, 2004, at 12:50 , bob thornton wrote:
>> Garth Wallace <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>> >bob thornton wrote:
>> >> g (velar click, no IPA symbol)
>> >I think there's no IPA symbol because it's anatomically impossible.
>Yep - IPA doesn't provide symbols for anatomically impossibles sounds and,
>as you say, a velar click is not a possibility.
>> >Clicks are velaric ingressives, formed by stopping airflow at the place
>> >of articulation and the velum, pulling the tongue root back to create a
>> >vacuum between them, and then releasing the stop. You can't have a
>> >velaric ingressive velar stop ó there would be no "between".
>Exactly. Clicks are produced by the velaric airstream, not the pulmonic
>airstream that we are most familiar with.
>There are three airstreams by which consonants can be produced. They are:
>- pulmonic, where the airstream is initiated by the lungs,
>- glottalic, where the airstream is initiated by the glottis,
>- velaric, where the airstream is initiated by the back of the tongue
>against the velum.
>The other consideration is whether air is being drawn in by the initiator
>or being expelled by it (that is, whether the sound is _ingessive_ or
>PULMONIC Consonants of most (inhaled sigh)
>GLOTTALIC ejectives implosives
>VELARIC (spitting) clicks
>(I guess a really freakish Frankenlang could include sighs & spitting)
Hrrmm. I think I can make a velaric egressive... but there's no spit involved. Its like a whistling noise... only not. A 'whht' kinda noise. But I digress.
>In order for the airstream to be ingressed, the velaric closure is
>released and as the air passes over the glottis the sound can be voiced.
>This is shown in the spelling of the Nguni languages by the addition of |g|
>; fot example in Xhosa:
>Dental click c cg
>postalveolar click q qg
>Lateral click x xg
>> Then what the deuce kind of noise am I making?
>Without hearing you, it is impossible to answer. But it *not* a velar
>plosive; for a click to be produced the airstream has to be interrupted
>_before_ is passes released velum-tongue closure. Clicks may be bilabial
>(a kiss), dental, (post)alveolar, palatal or lateral; but they cannot be
>velar since, as Garth rightly observes, there ain't no space between the
>velum and the velum!
>> It's on the same place of articulation as G... (XSAMPA g )
>Right - I think the fact you say it's in the same place as [g] and not as
>[k] is significant. Both sounds are velar plosives made by egress of the
>pulmonic airstream. The difference is that [g] is voiced.
The same place. Not the same vibration. I was just trying to illustrate where the bits in my mouth were. But yes, I think it is an ingressive sound.
>So I guess that we have a voiced sound made by an ingressive airstream, as
>clicks are, where there is closure of the back of tongue against the velum.
>That surely has to be as Garth wrote on Monday, September 6:
>> Probably an implosive (glottalic ingressive).
>(Probably - because neither Garth not I can hear you. But I guess that's
>what it is)
Makes sense. Maybe I should get some recording tech. But that costs money, and money is better saved than spent. I think going to college is a leeetle bit more important.
>Implosives (i.e. glottalic ingressive stops) are fairly widespread in
>African languages. IPA gives symbols for bilabial, dental/alveolar,
>palatal, velar and uvular implosives.
Are these the ones with the curliques on top of the ascenders?
>I hope you find this helpful and maybe even gives other ideas for a
The (Soon to be Doctor of Franken-izing) Sock