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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:00:51 +0300, Dan Sulani <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>    While looking over the IPA-CXS chart, I noticed
>that there seem to be no symbols for a bilabial
>lateral fricative. This got to me to thinking: what else
>would you call a sound produced by pressing the
>lips firmly together and letting the air escape only
>at one side (corner?) of the mouth. It's bilabial,
>it sure seems like a fricative, and it's lateral!
>    I can produce it either on the right side, the
>left side, or both sides at once (a bilateral bilabial
>fricative? :-)   ).

Technically it could be called a bilabial lateral - iirc
Catford mentioned it as a possibility in one of his
books - but it probably violates some ease-of-production
criteria to be counted as a likely phoneme.

>    And, for that matter, what is the following sound
>called: lips firmly pressed together; air forced out,
>producing the "buzz" that "powers" brass instuments
>such as the trumpet or trombone.
>    Would you call it a bilabial trill? I have always
>understood that "bilabial trill" refers to the lips being
>held more laxly so that they flap freely (yes, I will also
>admit to looking in mirrors and watching myself do
>wierd conlang-related things! ;-)    ). Would it be the difference
>between a "lax bilabial trill" and a "tense bilabial trill"?

I'd count it as an exceptionally tense bilabial trill,
and in the realm of labial trills I think that there is
a considerable range of possibilities:

1) tense-lip bilabial trill ("trumpet trill"/"insect buzz")
2) lax-lip bilabial trill ("normal labial trill")
3) fricated bilabial trill (sort of an ultra-lax trill
   that reminds me of a horse whinneying [sp?])
4) unilateral labiodental trill (labiodental gesture exaggerated
   on one side of the mouth with airstream causing upper lip to
   trill)
5) sub-labiolingual trill (protrude tongue, trill lower lip
   against underside of tongue)
6) supra-labiolingual trill (protrude tongue, trill upper lip
   which tends - for me - to be tenser than #5)

Since only a few dozen languages actually use bilabial trills,
and none, so far as I am aware, use labiolingual trills, I wonder
if it is feasible for a language to use more than one?

>    And anyhow, what about the lateral version of  _this_?
>I can hold my lips firmly pressed together and force air
>out the center (standard trumpet-playing procedure).
>I can also force air only out the right side of the lips
>(standard ceremonial placement, as I understand it,
>for blowing a shofar, [or ram's horn]). I have done it
>this way. For that matter, I can also force the air out
>only on the left side of my lips. (Same "buzz", other side).
>    How would one classify these sounds?
>Right (Left, Center) tense bilabial trills? And what about
>a "buzz" produced simultaneously out both sides of the
>lips, with the center being held firmly in place?
>Bilateral tense bilabial trills?

Probably - but unless they are acoustically distinct I'd
say that it is very unlikely that they'd be useful as
speech sounds.

Bfowol