* Eldin Raigmore said on 2006-03-15 23:17:41 +0100 > On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:04:59 +0100, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin- > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > In all the Indo-European languages I've had a look at, "but/however" > > are standalone words. In logic/semantics, "but" is considered yet > > another "and". The difference in using "but" instead of "and" is > > that the "but" says that something else was expected than what > > actually happened. > > > > a) X and Y. > > b) X, expected Y but got Z. > > > > I thought of using "and" as usual with the second clause (the Z) > > marked with the counterfactual, but :) that seems wrong somehow. > > May I suggest this is a job for the Mirative? > > Much like your thought, mark the second clause (the Z), but, since it is > factual rather than counterfactual, instead of marking it Irrealis, mark > it "Mirative" -- meaning approximately "the speaker still wonders at it", > more precisely "the speaker still has not incorporated it into his/her > worldview". > > So, if you expect X and Y, but get X and Z, you'd say, in effect: > "X and Z-MIR". Yes this does seem the most Taruvenian solution. X and Z-unexpected. This of course raises the question of what other affixes/clitics can share the position of "-unexpected", is it a mood, aspect, tense, evidential-source marker or evidential-certainty marker? (Which reminds me, I think I've forgotten to tell that the page on verbs is (finally! The first version of it was made in 1997!) up: <http://taliesin.nvg.org/taruven/topic.html>) I suspect it's in its own category together with other markers for how the narrator sees the situation (together with unfortunately, hopefully, luckily etc.). I've seen a term for such a category somewhere but as usual I can't remember where, or what it was... t.