R A Brown writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > Sounds like a gerund (also the examples above seem to indicate a
> > gerund-like nature).  And GND is for gerund I suppose, so what's the
> > difference to INF?
> None - 'tis only the baleful influence of Latin grammar.

I admit that it was Latin I was influenced by indeed.

> In Latin, as I have explained, although the infinitives were neuter
> verbal nouns (e.g. ), they could be used only as nominatives &
> accusatives, and the latter only if not preceded by a preposition. To
> 'fill in the rest of the gaps', the gerund was used. But *this is
> peculiar to Latin only*!


BTW, do you happen to know a source for telling me exactly when the
accusative infinitive was used in Latin and when the gerund?  I don't
have any intuition and failed to find any helpful information in my
Latin grammars -- the respective sections are not contrastive enough
to enlighten me.  E.g. in 'He likes to drink' or 'He links drinking.',
both constructions seem possible in English.  What did Latin allow

> Cheguei   sem     saberem = I arrive without their knowing.
> I-arrived without know-INF-1S
> As the 1st & 3rd persons have no ending, it is necessary to use
> subject pronouns, e.g.
> Chegaram       sem   eu    saber = they arrive without my knowing
> They-arrived without I-NOM know-INF

Yes, Portuguese has quite some interesting differences compared to
other Romance langs. :-)

> As I wrote in an earlier mail, if you have only one type of verbal
> noun in your language. you may call it a 'gerund' but IMO you have an
> infinitive called by a different name   :)

Ok.  My Latin bias would call an verbal noun uninflected by case an
infinitive and one that is inflected by case a gerund.

> But there is a habit I dearly think should have been kicked long ago:
> that of regarding only a sequence such as 'to come' as "the
> infinitive" in English. Trask says of this habit:
> "...but this view is indefensible."
> Amen!
> The word 'come' in sentences such as "I can come tomorrow", "She must
> come and see this" etc is infinitive. ...

Yes, I fully agree.  (Strongly agreeing here might, for me, be an
influence from German grammar. :-))