On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 05:03:43PM +0200, John Vertical wrote: > >On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 02:28:39AM +0100, Henrik Theiling wrote: > >> Hi! > >> > Eric Christopherson writes: > >> > ... If so, would people whose first language is not > >> > English perceive /kant/ and /kVnt/ to sound the same? > >> > E.g. Germans, most definitely yes. /V/ is a strange sound to us > >> sounding very much like our /a/ so many of us pronounce those two > >> words identically. > >[...] > > > >FWIW, when I first learned English, I conflated [V] with [a], and [I] > >with [i] when speaking English. I found [I] too much like [e] when > >listening to English. It was only until I came to North America that I > >learned to tell them apart. > > Also /U/ with /u/ presumably? Yep. I learned "but" and "boot" as [bat] and [but], and "poor" as [pw@r] or even [pu@r]. > This is actually how English is taught in Finland - eg. "bit a beet" > as /bit @ bi:t/. I had trouble distinguishing between "bit" and "beet", being from an L1 that doesn't distinguish vowel length (at least, not without including other features). They both sounded like [bit]. It was only later that I learned to tell between [I] and [i:]. > Apparently it does get the message across well enuff & introducing the > concepts of /I U/ would be too much hassle. /V @ O/ are the only new > vowels I remember being introduced to in English classes, the rest > were more or less approximated with Finnish equivalents. I still conflate [A] and [O]. [...] > >But even now, I still have trouble distinguishing between [V] and > >. [...] > > I can't think of any language making use of THAT distinction, so it > shouldn't be much of a bother. [...] It's more for my own sake, to pronounce different languages properly. On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 12:43:57PM +0100, Henrik Theiling wrote: > Hi! > > Isaac Penzev writes: > > Henrik Theiling wrote: > > > > | Eric Christopherson writes: > > | > ... If so, would people whose first language is not > > | > English perceive /kant/ and /kVnt/ to sound the same? > > | > > | E.g. Germans, most definitely yes. /V/ is a strange sound to us > > | sounding very much like our /a/ so many of us pronounce those two > > | words identically. > > > > The same is true for Russian and Ukrainian speakers. I still am not sure > > about the precise quality of English /V/. > > I thought [V] was the reduced phone of the Russian /a/ and /o/ > phonemes? So I thought <kholodylnik> was [xVlV'd15nik]. [...] That's what I thought, too. I'm not too sure about the precise value of [V], but a "lax [a]" is certainly what happens in Russian words such as хорошо [xVrV"So:] and большое [bVl^j"So:j@], at least to my ears. T -- Don't drink and derive. Alcohol and algebra don't mix.