Dennis Paul Himes wrote: > > Roger Mills: > > I'm having trouble conceiving a situation where your "exclusive" (I/we > > and > > others, and you) would be used. Wouldn't this just be a general > > "plural"? > > Just "we all". Could you give an example? > > "Bob" is the first person exclusive plural nominative pronoun > (pronounced /bob/), and "bee" the first person inclusive nominative plural > (/be/). If Tifa was talking, then he'd use the following: > > talking to talking about old system new system > Na Tifa and Na bee bee > Na Tifa, Na, and EExa bee bob > Na and EExa Tifa, Na, and EExa bee bee > Uza Tifa, Na, and EExa bob bob OK. The first three would be Indonesian kita (incl.) since the hearer Na is involved in all cases. Only the last would be kami (excl.) since Uza is not part of the group discussed. (As in your old system. Using Indo. just helps me relate it to a familiar natlang.) #2, I suppose, might be used where EExa is not present, but it's understood he/she is/was/will be involved. In 3, or course, all the people spoken about are present. This would be correct too, I assume-- (Tifa talking)-- talking to talking about old system new system Uza Tifa and Na (bob?) bob And what would happen if Tifa is talking to Na and Uza about something Tifa, Na and EExa (but not Uza) did??? Oh my. (I think Indo. would use excl. kami.) > > The change I'm making is in the second case, where first, second, and > third are all combined. This is now what I've been calling "exclusive", > but > that term doesn't seem right any more, since no one's excluded in this > case. > I see your point, and perhaps for cultural reasons the language might want to distinguish 1 and 3 from 2 and 4; but you're right about "exclusive" being the wrong term for #2, which seems to involve _including absent others_. Technically it seems to be "inclusive-exclusive" but of course that won't do :-)) Since 1,3 are genuinely inclusive, and 4 is genuinely exclusive, a possible name for 2 might be "absentive"; then the rule would be "Use [bob] whenever (1) the hearer is not part of the group spoken about (true exclusive) or (2) whenever the group spoken about includes hearer and absent others."