On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 12:19:06PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
> | Yet Another Russian Thread. :-)
> Since I seem to be the only Russian speaker currently active on the
> List, I feel obliged to help.

OK. :-)

> | On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 10:18:27PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> | > I'd better give you examples of the correct Russian.
> | >
> | > Я учу химию. - I learn Chemistry (in the secondary school).
> | > Я изучаю химию. - I study Chemistry (at the university).
> |
> | So you'd use a different verb to distinguish between studying secondary
> | school and studying at university? (Well, not really different, but
> | cognate.)
> Usually, yes. _Изучать_ generally implies more thorough studies.


> | So the verb here is the
> | reflexive form, with a dative for the subject of study. Interesting.
> Yes. After thinking a little, I see we may use _учиться_ (_я учусь_) here
> too. They are equivalent.


> | > Я учу сестру читать. - I teach [my] sister how to read.
> | So accusative case for the person being taught, I guess?
> Yes. That is why I used the 1st declension noun for illustrative
> purposes, as they have a distinct for of Accusative.
> | > Я учу детей истории. (clumsy, a bit archaic) = Я обучаю детей истории.
> | > - I teach kids history.
> |
> | Interesting. Doesn't обучать mean "to train"?
> I don't know all the nuances of the *English* verb "to train", so my
> spontaneous Ru. equivalent to it would be _тренировать_ (back
> translated "to be a coach"). But then I consult the En-En dictionary
> and see I am wrong.  That's just a side meaning. We often take
> *glosses* as *equivalents*, while they are not.
> So yes, _обучать_ means "to train".

This usage ("to train kids history") is awkward in English, but I guess
it works in Russian.

> | Side question: is чтению pronounced ["tSt_jeniju] or ["St_jeniju]?
> [ˈʧʲtʲenʲiju] / CXS ["tS;t;en;iju]. Something like an extremely short
> [i] may be heard between [tS;] and [t;]. But neither required nor
> recommended.

I see. Where are the contexts where чт becomes [St]? I know it does in
words like что, and I read somewhere that ч has a tendency of
fricativising in other places as well.

> | > | Учить can mean both "to teach" and "to learn", the distinction being
> | > | drawn by the case of the nouns: "to teach" having the learner in the
> | > | accusative case and the subject in the dative, whereas "to learn"
> | > | having the subject in the accusative case (and the learner in the
> | > | nominative).
> | >
> | > Верно. См. выше. -- That's true. See above.
> |
> | This seems to work differently for other verbs like преподать, as you
> | have above.
> Many RU. verbs are unique wrt "Rection" (prepositional and/or case
> governing).

That's cool. Almost like Ebisédian. :-) I guess there's no real general
rule that can be used for deciding which cases go with which verb, and I
just have to learn them on a case-by-case basis?

> | > This time you are 100% right. But it's better to use the verb
> | > _нравиться_ "like" instead of _любить_ "love": _Мне нравится учить
> | > русский язык._
> |
> | I read about this in my book, that usually Russian would use нрпвится
> | where the English may use "love" instead of "like". I guess любить would
> | be used in occasions such as "I love you", although my book did have a
> | conversation where someone said, Я люблю говорить по-русски. Would this
> | be unusual in real-life?
> Sounds a bit odd. _Ljubit;_ is a strong word, y'see...

OK. So мне нравится говорить по-русски is more appropriate? (Did I
phrase that right?)

> To say nothing about slang equivalents to both, for example _Я тащусь
> от хипхопа._ "I go mad about hiphop".

Тащиться? My dictionary glosses it as "to drag oneself along"?
Interesting slang...

> | Speaking of short adjectives... it seems to me that they are essentially
> | predicative adjectives, is that right? (In the sense that they are
> | adjectives being used as a predicate.)
> Exactly so. Plus some archaic idioms that may be used, e.g., ironicly,
> for example _красна девица_ "a fair maid".

Literally "red maiden"? Funny.

Do all adjectives have a separate short (predicative) form? I almost
thought хороший was an exception, but then I looked it up and find its
predicative forms as хорош, хороша, хорошо. Do all neuter short forms
coincide with the adverbial form?


One who has not yet appreciated the beauty of language is not worthy to
bemoan its flaws.