Print

Print


On Tue, 2007-13-03 at 10:02 +0000, Elena Pierazzo wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --------------040805080709060901050901
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> in the transcription of Jane Austen's manuscript an element like 
> <ornament> would be perfect as JA tend to reproduce in her manuscripts 
> the appearance of printed books ruling, for instances, headings and 
> drawings rules to fill lines at the end of paragraphs.
> 
> In some cases a rend attribute can be used, for instance <head 
> rend="ruled">, but in other cases it is more difficult as for the 
> filling rules for which I use a <seg> element or for decorations she 
> draw in the covers.
> This decorations are indeed really basic and it seems really not worthy 
> to include such thing as graphics of images as they can be reproduced in 
> the output using HTML/CSS features.

I'm wondering also if this really is a different class of thing from
graphic or figure (I mean really wondering). Watermarks, for example,
are presumably not "figures" at the level of the text, since they are
part of the matrix. But if you were describing the paper structurally
they would be (not that you'd do that with TEI, I imagine). But if I
draw on my text or imitate ruled lines *as a decoration* is that really
different from a graphic or figure? It may be tedious to markup, but
that's presumably not too strong a structural argument--nothing ornament
would do couldn't be covered by graphic or figure with a distinguishing
att value.

Things get different if the lines are lines added to a MS to guide the
writing. Then I don't know what one does. But they presumably aren't
ornamental either.

> 
> Perhaps the needs of my project are really too specific, but I just 
> wanted to mention a circumstance in which I would have used such element 
> in case it would have been available.
> 
> Elena
> 
> Lou's Laptop wrote:
> > Back in the mists of time, in P1, and even also in P2,  to be exact, 
> > the TEI boasted an element called <ornament>.  I quote:
> >
> > ------------------
> > ORNAMENT
> >
> > Description:  marks the position of a printers device, ornament or fig-
> >      ure for example on a title page or elsewhere in a printed text.
> > Attributes:      desc:  provides a brief description of the appearance 
> > of the orna-
> >            ment.
> >      Data type:  CDATA
> >      Value:  A brief descriptive phrase      Default value:  #IMPLIED
> >      This attribute is optional. Example:           <ornament desc='a 
> > donkey burdened with books'>
> >                   <s>DEFEROR IN VICVM</s>
> >                   <s>VENDENTEM THVS ET ODORES</s>
> >           </ornament> Remarks:  Any text included in the ornament may 
> > be encoded as distinct
> >      segments as content of the <ornament> element. The appearance of
> >      the ornament itself (for example as a bit-mapped image) should be
> >      encoded in the same way as other embedded images; see section 42,
> >      "Formal Grammar for the TEI-Interchange-Format Subset of SGML,"
> >      [in separate fascicle]
> > Part:  base tag set for common core features.
> > Member of classes:  tpParts
> > -----------------
> >
> > In P3 this element was removed, largely on the grounds that <figure> 
> > would do the job just as well, though maybe the vagueness and 
> > inaccuracy of the tagdoc quoted above didn't encourage anyone to keep it.
> >
> > However, bibliographers are a tenacious bunch, and the revival of this 
> > element has now been proposed in some quarters (you know who you 
> > are).... so what do the People think?
> >
> > Are printers ornament sufficiently interesting -- and crucially, 
> > sufficiently different -- that they deserve an element of their own? 
> > Or should P5 continue to insist that you represent them in your 
> > encoding by means of a <graphic> or <figure> element?
> 
> -- 
> Elena Pierazzo
> Associate Researcher
> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> King's College London
> Kay House 
> 7 Arundel St
> London WC2R 3DX
> 
> Phone: 0207-848-1949
> Fax: 0207-848-2980
> 
> 
> --------------040805080709060901050901
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
>   <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
> </head>
> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
> <font face="Verdana">Hi all,<br>
> <br>
> in the transcription of Jane Austen's manuscript an element like
> &lt;ornament&gt; would be perfect as JA tend to reproduce in her
> manuscripts the appearance of printed books ruling, for instances,
> headings and drawings rules to fill lines at the end of paragraphs. <br>
> <br>
> In some cases a rend attribute can be used, for instance &lt;head
> rend="ruled"&gt;, but in other cases it is more difficult as for the
> filling rules for which I use a &lt;seg&gt; element or for decorations
> she draw in the covers. <br>
> This decorations are indeed really basic and it seems really not worthy
> to include such thing as graphics of images as they can be reproduced
> in the output using HTML/CSS features.<br>
> <br>
> Perhaps the needs of my project are really too specific, but I just
> wanted to mention a circumstance in which I would have used such
> element in case it would have been available.<br>
> <br>
> Elena</font><br>
> <br>
> Lou's Laptop wrote:
> <blockquote cite="[log in to unmask]"
>  type="cite">Back in the mists of time, in P1, and even also in P2,&nbsp; to
> be exact, the TEI boasted an element called &lt;ornament&gt;.&nbsp; I quote:
>   <br>
>   <br>
> ------------------
>   <br>
> ORNAMENT
>   <br>
>   <br>
> Description:&nbsp; marks the position of a printers device, ornament or fig-
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ure for example on a title page or elsewhere in a printed text.
>   <br>
> Attributes: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; desc:&nbsp; provides a brief description of the appearance
> of the orna-
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ment.
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Data type:&nbsp; CDATA
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Value:&nbsp; A brief descriptive phrase &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Default value:&nbsp; #IMPLIED
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This attribute is optional. Example: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ornament
> desc='a donkey burdened with books'&gt;
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;s&gt;DEFEROR IN VICVM&lt;/s&gt;
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;s&gt;VENDENTEM THVS ET ODORES&lt;/s&gt;
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;/ornament&gt; Remarks:&nbsp; Any text included in the ornament
> may be encoded as distinct
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; segments as content of the &lt;ornament&gt; element. The
> appearance of
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the ornament itself (for example as a bit-mapped image) should be
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; encoded in the same way as other embedded images; see section 42,
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Formal Grammar for the TEI-Interchange-Format Subset of SGML,"
>   <br>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [in separate fascicle]
>   <br>
> Part:&nbsp; base tag set for common core features.
>   <br>
> Member of classes:&nbsp; tpParts
>   <br>
> -----------------
>   <br>
>   <br>
> In P3 this element was removed, largely on the grounds that
> &lt;figure&gt; would do the job just as well, though maybe the
> vagueness and inaccuracy of the tagdoc quoted above didn't encourage
> anyone to keep it.
>   <br>
>   <br>
> However, bibliographers are a tenacious bunch, and the revival of this
> element has now been proposed in some quarters (you know who you
> are).... so what do the People think?
>   <br>
>   <br>
> Are printers ornament sufficiently interesting -- and crucially,
> sufficiently different -- that they deserve an element of their own? Or
> should P5 continue to insist that you represent them in your encoding
> by means of a &lt;graphic&gt; or &lt;figure&gt; element?
>   <br>
> </blockquote>
> <br>
> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
> Elena Pierazzo
> Associate Researcher
> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> King's College London
> Kay House 
> 7 Arundel St
> London WC2R 3DX
> 
> Phone: 0207-848-1949
> Fax: 0207-848-2980</pre>
> </body>
> </html>
> 
> --------------040805080709060901050901--
-- 
Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/>
Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/>
Associate Professor and Chair of English
University of Lethbridge
Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
Vox: +1 403 329 2378
Fax: +1 403 382-7191
Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/