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Sorry, I have to forward this. This is the first time
that a message from Don ended up going back to him
individually. 

> --- "Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > A couple of notes on phonology of Neo Patwa:
> 
> > (1) Chinese, with around a fifth of the world's
> > speakers, does not 
> > make the P/B, K/G or T/D distinctions; instead it
> > distinguishes on 
> > aspiration rather than voicing. 
> 
> Don, thanks for the critiques, and I'll see if I can
> come up with some explanations. First, you're right
> about the aspiration/voicing problem. To be honest,
> I
> half believe that it would be best for an IAL to do
> away with the distinction altogether, i.e. only have
> one series. So no B at all, just P, K and T. The
> only
> reason I haven't done that in NP is that I've had
> people tell me that "panana" sounds silly. And this
> becomes a more general philosophical point, but I do
> plan to have the language change based on usage, so
> the B, G, and D may disappear. 
> > 
> > (2) While the H sound is not as rare as some would
> > have it, it 
> > doesn't exist in either of the world's two major
> > languages, Chinese 
> > and English (unless, of course, one counts lowland
> > Scots as a dialect 
> > of English, which the English do but the Scottish
> > don't). 
> 
> In this case, there is only one sound, and though I
> suggest pronouncing it like the Scottish "ch", it is
> fine if people use an "h" sound like in English or
> Chinese (actually, I think the Chinese is a little
> bit
> harder than English). The reason I recommend using
> something like a velar fricative is that if you just
> have the glottal fricative like in English, people
> (for example, French and Jamaicans as well as
> speakers
> of some dialects of English) will tend to drop it. 
> 
> 
> > I agree with the justification, but not everyone
> > will. Again, the 
> > tapped/trilled R is _not_ common across languages
> > (and, again, it 
> > isn't found in either English or Chinese, which
> > together account for 
> > perhaps 30% of the people in the world).
> 
> Actually, I have eliminated the R from the
> phonology.
> This is a problem of my organization of the
> documents...
> 
> > This implies that you can't easily have a word
> > formation system where 
> > words can be conjoined at double vowels. I am
> > presuming that Neo 
> > Patwa is not going to have a word formation system
> > in the sense that 
> > Esperanto, for instance, does, but the same
> problem
> > is going to occur 
> > at points where a word starting with a vowel
> follows
> > a word ending 
> > with a vowel. 
> 
> It's an important question, because Neo Patwa has a
> system of word formation that is similar in some
> ways
> to Esperanto. Not with the suffixes, but a lot of
> compounding. So "tomorrow" will be "pili-din"
> (next-day), for example. So that problem will come
> up.
> Although I know this leads to irregularities, I
> think
> that it may be best to accept two vowels becoming
> one
> in that case. The other option is to recommend
> putting
> a glottal stop in between. 
> 
> -
> > 
> > A note on (presentation of) the numeral system.
> > (Actually, a couple of notes.)
> > 
> > (1) I'm not sure why you introduce the somewhat
> > redundant -pela to 
> > show the cardinal numerals, since the terms by
> > themselves seem 
> > totally appropriate; is this something you
> borrowed
> > from Tok Pisin or 
> > some similar tongue? I'd tend to omit it (for
> > simplicity) and simply 
> > show "wan baci, do baci, san baci ..."
> 
> I understand that, and that's been suggested to me
> by
> somebody else as well. It is true that it comes from
> Tok Pisin, or more generally, Asian contact
> languages.
> In Chinese Pidgin English, apparently they said "one
> piecee man". The justification I have for it (maybe
> not significant) is that it's easy under this system
> to make the distinction between "one month"
> (wan-pela
> luna" and "January" (wan-luna). A compound word
> using
> numbers can be different from the noun with a
> counter
> in front of it. But if it appears redundant and
> speakers do it they way you suggested, I'll be happy
> with that as well. 
> > 
> 
> > (3) You also don't show how to combine the basic
> > numerals to get the 
> > more complex ones. I am presuming that you're
> using
> > an 
> > Esperanto/Asian system ("three hundred forty five"
> > in Esperanto is 
> > "tri cent kvar dek kvin"; I am presuming that in
> Neo
> > Patwa it is "san 
> > heka cal deka nam". Only suggestion for a
> difference
> > I would make is 
> > that you don't omit the "one" before tens,
> hundreds,
> > thousands as is 
> > done in Esperanto: "one hundred twenty three" =
> > "cent du dek tri" = 
> > "wan heka do deka san". This would be for
> > consistency. In any case, 
> > whatever you have decided on the system, I'd also
> > add that to your 
> > "Guide" under the numbers; again, it shouldn't
> take
> > up much space.
> 
> Yes, you are right about the counting system, and
> thanks for the suggestion about not omitting the
> "wan". I think you're probably right, that for
> consistency it's better to include it. Again, if
> users
> start omitting it in practice, that is just a signal
> that it is probably redundant, and can be dropped. 
> 


Jens Wilkinson
Neo Patwa language: http://patwa.pbwiki.com


 
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