On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> 2009/4/23 Edgard Bikelis <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > We usually say 'athematic' for strong verbs, and 'thematic' for the weak
> > ones, because if a root, that itself is athematic, receives an thematic
> > vowel (that changes between -e/o-, but it's not ablaut!), it no longer
> > loses
> > its accent to the desinences. Probably PIE had just athematic verbs, as
> no
> > thematic verb can be directly traced to it, except one... IRC, *weg'h-o:
> > lat
> > veho:, that is found in sanskrit and tocharian too.
> >
> In that case wouldn't thematic verbs have more likely disappeared than
> become prevalent? This is interesting - are there publicly accessible
> materials one can view on this subject?

They were rare, but without ablaut, they were much easier to use, also. Ugly
things come from the zero-grade forms, in verbs or nouns... like *pltH2wyH2
'broad (feminine).


> > A weird problem is that, in athematic verbs, the subjunctive is made with
> > the very same thematic vowel, and if the stem is already thematic, it's
> > added twice, making the thematic vowel long. Many try to derive those
> > thematic presents from athematic subjunctives, but the semantical leep
> > seems
> > really unlikely.
> >
> I didn't quite get what you meant by "deriving thematic presents from
> athematic subjunctives".

Lets suppose a root R. If the present is R, athematic, the subjunctive will
be the root plus the thematic vowel, R-e/o-. Now, if the present becomes
R-e/o-, its subjunctive gains another thematic vowel, R-e-e/o-. If the first
athematic form is older, the only obvious origin for the thematic present is
that the subjunctive from the athematic conjugation became a new present
form, and then its subjunctive was marked again. I hope this was clearer : )

 > In sanskrit the svarita, 'grave', was lower in pitch. When a short vowel
> > was
> > acute, the next vocalic mora was grave, like 'tátà', and the next mora
> > after
> > a grave was toneless. There are cases where the acute vowel became a
> > semivowel, then just the 'independent svarita' survived, like 'svàr' for
> > 'súar'. So we know more or less how it sounded... but the greek grave is
> > really another thing.
> >
> Does the svarita only ever follow a high pitch?

Yep, always. Independent svarita came to be by the almost total annihilation
of all hiatus ; ), so that an accented i/u became y/v by súar
~ svàr, kvà ~ kúa, vi:ryàm ~ vi:ríam..

Στις 23 Απρίλιος 2009 7:39 μμ, ο χρήστης Philip Newton <
> [log in to unmask]> έγραψε:


> Eugene