2009/9/24 Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]> > Isn't this just dissilimation? E.g. kaka > xaka > You could even mix this with palatalisation and other sorts of lenition, > e.g. kiki > xiki > çici, and, if you wanted, > hici > ici > is_ji > iS etc. > > Eugene > 2009/9/24 Njenfalgar <[log in to unmask]> > >> I have this language (as yet unnamed), where I decided the following >> sound-change would happen: if two consecutive consonants (i.e.: with one >> vowel in between) have the same POA, then one will change. It would not be >> the POA that changes, but I was intending to do something else, like >> lenition or the like. But I have not yet been able to work it out in any way >> I am very happy with. So, do any of you have any idea of how I could do >> this, or is it just a bad idea? >> >> Greets >> David >> >> -- >> Raash te feegatpin: nuukazet nhamaru'eng, shayip büngnetuk seepiit. >> > > "kaka > xaka" is indeed what I had originally in mind, but then the question arose of what to do with things like "xaka". Making it "xaxa" is not much of dissimilation, so I started feeling some doubt. 2009/9/24 Basilius <[log in to unmask]> > (1) The idea is good and interesting to explore :) > > For example, the well-known restrictions on root consonant combinatorics in > Semitic langs are, in all probability, produced by some changes of that > type. > > (2) By analogy with what happens in Semitic, I'd thought of two types of > changes first: complete assimilation (tVd -> dVd &like, perhaps with a > subsequent metathesis producing a geminate, -> ...Vdd...) and, as you said, > lenition (e. g. to a glide or a laryngeal). > > (3) As it seems, especially interesting are the consequences for the lang's > morphology. Since many contrasts will be lost in some forms of a word but > not others, the main concern would seem to be for the morphology not to > become too opaqe. > > OTOH if (just for example) the original morphology is a suffixing one, and > the changes are ordered in such a way that it's the consonant of the suffix > that inherits the original quality of the stem-final consonant (that is, a > progressive assimilation comes first, and next the first of the two similar > consonants undergoes a lenition) - then you have really curious outcomes to > play with further... > > -- > Basilius > I've been thinking I should study semitic languages for a long time already... :-) My lang is actually mostly prefixing, so the interesting results in the morphology concern prefixes having different form, depending on the word coming after. 2009/9/25 Andreas Johansson <[log in to unmask]> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > On Sep 24, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Alex Fink wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:54:20 -0400, Basilius <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> Well, except that the change in question doesn't change the fact of > having > >> two consecutive consonants at the same place of articulation. It would > >> lead > >> to funny cooccurrence relations, something like *C-V-(strong C at the > same > >> position), where "strong" means 'not the product of any of the possible > >> lenitions'. > >> > >> Overall it's a strange change; I'd be fairly surprised if there was > >> natlang > >> precedent. > > > > It might come from an earlier state of affairs where one of the sounds is > an > > aspirated stop or ejective; some languages have synchronic rules > > dissimilating such sequences, e.g. ancient Greek, which (IIRC) changed > the > > first aspirated stop to its unaspirated voiceless counterpart. > > Yup, leading to wonderful inflections like _thrix_, gen. _trichos_, > where the nom. lost the 2nd aspirate to an earlier rule khs > ks. > > > > -- > Andreas Johansson > > Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else? > Actually the dissimilation of aspirates in Greek was what gave me the inspiration to do something of the like. My lang has aspirates, so I just copied the sound change. I have not yet found many interesting inflection like in Greek, however, but I'm sure they're there. And then I thought I could go on in this direction with more dissimilation-like change, but maybe it would be easier and more natural to just change the PoA. I'll think about it some more. Anyway many thanks already for all the suggestions so far, and if anybody has more of them, don't hesitate to post them! Greets David -- Raash te feegatpin: nuukazet nhamaru'eng, shayip büngnetuk seepiit.