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David McCann wrote: > On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 09:26 +0000, R A Brown wrote: > >> It's true that Spanish carried the diphthongization further >> and that stressed VL [E] became |ie| and stress VL [O] >> (stressed 'short-o' of CL) became |we|. But Portuguese >> resisted diphthongization (tho I have read that >> diphthongization was an Iberian Romance feature and that >> there was a later monophthongization of these diphthongs - >> but I've never seen any evidence given for this, which makes >> me rather skeptical of that theory). > > Diphthongisation of Romance /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ is complex. Which is why I hadn't intended to deal with this in my original mail, but to stick with standard French & Italian :) > In Spanish and > Rhaeto-Romance, it's universal; in French and central Italian, it's > confined to open syllables; in south Italian, it's conditioned by the > following vowel. So we get dentem > Sp diente, Fr dent and It dente, > S.It. dente but diente < *denti. Thanks for the summary. >> Romanian also shows diphthongization of stressed [E] to |ea| >> and stressed [O] to |oa|; but under what conditions, I'm not >> sure without checking. > > That's an assimilation to -a- in the next syllable: sēra > seară. Right. >[snip] >> has several VL antecedents. But I guess there was Gallic VL >> form *[sEdjo] *sediu(m) --> _siège_. > > The usual explanation is *sedicum. OK - that makes sense. A Gallic _sedicum_, with all short vowels, derived from the verb _sedere_ (or is it conflation of VL and Celtic?) >> One has to be aware that in the Romance languages there were >> always learned borrowings directly from Classical or >> Medieval Latin, as we'll as the inherited stuff from Vulgar >> Latin. > > To add to the fun, you also have semi-learned forms. Latin 'saeculum' > gives 'siècle': the -ie- is popular, but the -cl- is learned. Yes, indeed. IIRC French has quite a few of these ;) ------------------------------------------------- Philip Newton wrote: [snip] > > What would be the expected outcome -- *sieil? > I guess so. -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu. There's none too old to learn. [WELSH PROVERB]