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On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I am combining my responses to Patrick and Garth here:
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
>> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
>> >
>> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) --
>> no
>> > IPA
>>
>> Circle with a dot in it?  If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
>> could put a comma under it.
>
>
> Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
> rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.

Yes, but the diacritic specifically makes it rounded.

>> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
>> tongue
>> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>>
>> I can't do that without pain.
>
> Why do I hear things like this so often.  Is my tongue really that
> gymnastic?

Maybe he's misunderstanding your description? It looked to me like you
were just explaining what a retroflex is (bottom of the tip of the
tongue touches the roof of the mouth), but if he read it that the
entire underside of the tongue should touch, that's basically
impossible without severing the frenulum.

> On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Garth Wallace <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
>> pipe
>> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
>> > else would use!
>>
>> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
>> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
>> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
>> accomplish the former.
>
> Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue in
> a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of the
> simple lateral release.  as for there never being a distinction between
> simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
> finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use here.

I'm still not sure what you mean by it. If I cram my tongue over to
one side of my mouth so the air only passes on one side, it doesn't
really sound any different.

Maybe you're coarticulating a lateral click with a non-lateral? I can
do that, though not dependably. It's sort of a wet sucking sound. Or
maybe you've got a distincton between alveolar and palatal lateral
clicks?

>> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
>> probably
>> > says no such beast exists
>> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
>> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>>
>> I don't think these can exist. The place of articulation must be
>> between the airstream mechanism (velar, for clicks) and the outside
>> air, or no sound is produced.
>
> They do exist.  I make them.  I just figure my description is off the mark.
>
>
>> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
>> shoddy
>> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
>> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
>> >
>> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
>> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
>> > "popping" sound ensues.
>> >
>> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis
>> to
>> > make a vacuum.  The closure is released and a sound like that used in
>> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
>>
>> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
>> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
>> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
>> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
>>
> No.  Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think.  =\_G (which I now think
> would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive /k/
> as is |\ from implosive /t/.  the POA's are the same, but the implosives
> have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just pop
> like any click.  They aren't breathy.  They don't work from the diaphram.
> I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.

Voiceless implosives shouldn't be breathy. The lungs aren't involved.
Voiced implosives sometimes have some exhalation involved AIUI, but
voiceless ones have full closure at the glottis.

> For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue as
> for /k/. Lower the glottis.  Release the oral closure.  The resulting sound
> is a popping noise.  That is what I am trying to write.
>
> For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
> tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound is
> significantly lower in pitch.

Yeah, those are definitely both implosives. If you're creating a
pressure differential by closing and lowering the glottis, that's
glottalic ingressive, by definition.