On 23/09/2010 17:40, BPJ wrote: > 2010-09-23 17:59, R A Brown skrev: [snip] >> Yes, _c'h_ IMO is particularly ugly. They couldn't, of >> course use >> _ch_ as that has the value /S/ in Breton (and _j_ = /Z/). >> As most >> occurrences of _c'h_ (about 80% IIRC) are in fact >> _voiced_, I've >> always thought _gh_ would have been better. > > Actually my brain wants to read _c'h_ as an aspirated version > of whatever _c'_ might be; years of dealing with Latinized > Sanskrit has taken its toll! Maybe - but the apostrophe traditionally denotes the dropping of some sound or other. In any case, using a trigraph to represent a single sound has never been something I've like. >> The "Orthographie Universitaire" which was introduced in >> 1955 but, >> AFAIK, never caught on, voiced _c'h_ was to spelled simply >> as _h_ >> and _c'h_ was to be reserved only for the voiceless sound. >> A major >> improvement IMO - but, as I say, it never caught on. > > Isn't _h_ used otherwise? No - as I understand it, _h_ represents a voiced glottal fricative, as it does, e.g. in Czech and Afrikaans. My understanding is that _h_ and voiceless _c'h_ pair up in much the same way as _h_ and _ch_ in Czech. > IIRC the _zh_ is /h/ in one dialect > and /z/ in the others (reflex of */T/ which went > /h/ here > and > [D] > /z/ there I'd guess -- alas I'm forgetting things > at an alarming rate...) No you haven't = that's precisely what _zh_ denotes: a /z/ in some dialects and voiced glottal plosive /h/ in others - both being reflexes of /T/ > /D/. > Anyhow if all of /h x G S Z/ exist and they want 'French' > defaults then why on earth not use _h kh gh ch j_. After > all _kh_ is the usual Frenchy, as Englishy, transcription > for /x/X/. Indeed. > (On the freak side I once saw _rh_ used for /G/ in a French > context in an old book. Happily that practice never caught > on/died out, though *if* I were using a lot of _-h_ digraphs > (but, as you may remember, I actually dislike 'em!) I might use > _rh_ for /R/ vs. something /r/-ish.) Xhosa uses _rh_ /x/ and _gr_ /G/ But that's moving the thread away from Celticity ;) -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt, wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun." [J.G. Hamann, 1760] "A mind that thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language".