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On 10/20/2010 6:32 AM, R A Brown wrote:
> On 19/10/2010 21:59, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
>> I've been poking around the net, and I can't seem to come
>> up with the difference between the greek combining
>> prefixes endo- and ento-, I've gotten the impression that
>> both mean "inside" endo- is somewhat ellative and ento-
>> is allative, but that seems a bit off to me.
>
> It is a bit off.
>
> endo- <-- ένδον _endon_ (adverb) = within, inside.
>
> ento- <-- έντος _entos_ (preposition) = within, inside
>
> Just to confuse the issue, _endon_ was occasionally used with a genitive
> case just like a preposition, and very occasionally _entos_ was used as
> an adverb :)
>
> Neither Greek word has an ellative or allative meaning; they just mean
> "inside" (inessive) - one being an adverb and the other a preposition.
>
> The reason why you haven't been able to come up with a difference in
> meaning between the two prefixes is simple: there ain't one :)
>

<delurk>

Ray, I'm sure you're right about the point at issue.  (I don't know 
enough about Greek to be entitled to an opinion.)  But...

<nitpick>

I think both of you are misusing the terms "ellative" and "allative". 
The former isn't even a real word, AFAIK (it sounds to me like a 
conflation of "illative" and "elative" (see below)), and the latter is 
real but irrelevant to the point under discussion, if I understand that 
point correctly.

My understanding is that these terms, as they are used in describing, 
e.g., Finnish, are members of a group of six "local cases" (that is, 
cases whose core meanings have to do with location).  Within this group, 
there are two cross-cutting distinctions: "static" (referring to a 
stationary or ongoing location) vs. "dynamic" (referring to motion, 
either to or from a location), and "interior" (referring to location 
within some sort of enclosed or bounded space) vs. "exterior" (referring 
to location at either a dimensionless point or a general "place" without 
specific boundaries).  The whole group is:

interior:
     static:
         inessive (in)
     dynamic:
         illative (into)
         elative (out of)
exterior:
     static:
         adessive (at)
     dynamic:
         allative (to)
         ablative (from)

The more general term "locative" often covers the territory of both 
adessive and inessive.

Of course, I'm oversimplifying terribly; in many languages whose 
grammars are traditionally described using some or all of these terms, 
the cases referred to have a wider range of uses than my quick-and-dirty 
definitions would imply (an extreme example being the Latin "ablative").

It sounds to me as if the terms you really want are "elative" and 
"illative".

</nitpick>
</delurk>

- Tim