Dear Patrick (cc TEI-L),

Where I've used TEI in projects, I've worked hard to constrain it (which I think is what you mean by profile), but the problem I described in my earlier posting isn't one that depends on my choices alone. To support the sort of interoperability I consider desirable, it would be necessary for others in my field to implement the same constraints as I do (in those places where we are encoding the same information, that is) when we aren't necessarily in communication with one another until after we've begun (or even finished) our encoding.

When I ask for fewer choices, I'm not speaking about the sort of discipline-specific considerations where Council lacks the expertise to make a recommendation, of course. And I'm also not suggesting that my colleagues should necessarily do things My Way, only that if Guidelines offered fewer choices, we would naturally wind up making the same decisions. What I'm suggesting, then, is that I wish Council would be more willing than it has been in the past to recommend Best Practice, including arbitrary Best Practice, in the interest of making it easier for people who are doing The Same Thing to do it The Same Way. As I wrote earlier, that doesn't prevent (and Council should not discourage) people from customizing where they consider it necessary, and I think it's a reasonable middle position between providing expert guidance (good) and telling people what they have to do (bad). 



-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Durusau [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 3:10 PM
To: Birnbaum, David J
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TEI interoperability and interchange


Have you considered writing a "profile" of TEI that limits choices for manuscript descriptions and bibliographies?

Profiling the TEI schema would allow you to "tighten" it up and yet remain "interchangeable" with other TEI projects.

Extracting/refactoring the Guidelines to reflect your choices would take some work but once done, you would have a documented profile of the TEI with (hopefully), illustrations from your particular area of interest.

Freely granting what I am suggesting is easier said than done but in terms of attracting new members, it might not be a bad idea. I would be a "new" member but I would be much more interested in manuscripts than say poetry, at least from the eras likely to form a project at the TEI.

Hope you are having a great day!


PS: Thanks for pointing out Tommie Usdin's keynote! For the record, I deeply disagree with her view of semantics.

On 8/22/2011 10:59 AM, Birnbaum, David J wrote:
> Dear TEI-L,
> Those who care about interoperability and interchange could read with profit .
> My experience with the TEI Guidelines is very different from John's (although we served together on Council): in my experience the Guidelines often provide alternative ways to represent the same information, that is, alternative encodings that have no clear, stable informational difference. In my experience, the TEI, in an effort to be respectful of its users, has often neglected what I think is a responsibility to guide, that is, to assert that given two ways of encoding the same information, one will be recommended as best practice (and supported in unmodified, off-the-shelf TEI) and the other won't.
> The reduction of alternatives (by recommending one and only one, even if chosen arbitrarily) is beneficial only when there is truly no meaningful informational difference, and making that decision is often difficult. On the other hand, I have heard Council members refuse to make that type of decision not because they perceive an informational difference, but because "we don't want to tell people what to do with their data." Please, tell me what to do with my data that will make it easier to interchange and interoperate! TEI is extensible, so taking seriously what I think is Council's responsibility to dictate best practice doesn't prevent people who really, really want to do something another way from making their own decision and remaining conformant. It does, though, reduce fragmentation in the community because users who don't have a strong preference for one particular solution will most naturally be guided to do things the same way.
> Many of my documents are manuscript descriptions and bibliographies, where the ability to query a union catalog formed by merging multiple independent encoding projects is a high priority for users. I'd be very happy to be able to trust that the developers of TEI projects in my field will encode this type of information the same way I will, and that our encodings will differ only when we're encoding different information, and not just because we have different arbitrary preferences. I don't care what that one way of doing a particular something is, but when Council gives me choices that aren't rooted in informational differences, they think they're giving me freedom, but they're also giving me fragmentation and isolation.
> Best,
> David
> On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "John A. Walsh"<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> As is so often the case, I am in nearly full agreement with Lou's 
>> sentiments. Interoperability is not particularly high on my list of 
>> desiderata for TEI.
>> Those of us who have been trying over the  years to justify the 
>> intellectual and scholarly rigor of text encoding have emphasized 
>> that an encoding of a text is, among other things, a reading and 
>> interpretation of that text. When the TEI provides multiple ways to 
>> do the "same" thing, there are usually subtle or not so subtle 
>> rhetorical differences that accompany each different way of doing that thing.
>> Thus, they are not really the "same" thing at all. By establishing 
>> one and only one way to do a certain thing, we gut the rhetorical 
>> power of the TEI. A relentless charge towards interoperability would 
>> benefit the increasing tendency towards the Googleization of digital 
>> humanities, in which bigger is generally better, "good enough" OCR is 
>> good enough, and lip service is paid to beautifully crafted and 
>> carefully curated smaller projects as they are relegated to a 
>> necessary but increasingly irrelevant middle ages of digital 
>> humanities. Rather than have at my disposal millions of homogenous 
>> and interoperable TEI texts provided by Google or whomever, I would 
>> prefer to make my way through a smaller number of meticulously 
>> encoded texts, where the mind of the scholar(s)/editors(s) is present 
>> in the encoding, along with ingenious and clever encoding strategies 
>> that suggest important critical insights about the texts. This is the 
>> nanotechnolgoy of digital humanities.
>> The TEI is a monumental intellectual achievement that provides both a 
>> theory of text and a framework to accommodate many other, often 
>> competing, theories of text. These theories are not always 
>> interoperable, and the TEI encodings of different texts are not and 
>> should not always be interoperable, though as Lou rightly points out, 
>> they are always or generally interchangeable.
>> Having said that, I don't think the TEI as it currently exists is 
>> necessarily incompatible with greater interoperability, and certainly 
>> the TEI community has the expertise to provide an interoperable 
>> format in addition to an interchange format, but it would be 
>> something different and should supplement rather than replace what we 
>> currently have.
>> I will take issue with Lou's characterization of Mr. Jobs. Flash is 
>> not absent from certain Apple devices because Apple believes it will 
>> confuse people. It's absent because it sucks-it degrades performance 
>> and wreaks havoc on battery life, and Apple has instead thrown their 
>> considerable weight behind a more open, competing standard: HTML5 and 
>> related technologies that can provide much or all of the 
>> functionality of the proprietary Flash. Apple also led the charge to make the 3.5"
>> floppy disk obsolete, not because it confused people, but because 
>> networks and other technologies made them increasingly useless. I 
>> assume Lou doesn't want a 3.5" floppy drive on his phone, but I may 
>> be wrong, :-).
>> I'm sure we all remember that it was not so long ago that Apple was 
>> dismissed and ridiculed as a niche player, who, if they wanted to 
>> succeed, needed to become more interoperable with the dominant 
>> operating systems and technologies of the day. Mr. Jobs and Apple 
>> told the pundits to fuck off, and continued their focus on design, 
>> elegance, aesthetics, and innovation, not interoperability. We all 
>> know how that worked out for them. I don't think the TEI would do too 
>> bad moving forward by continuing our own long-standing and successful 
>> focus on design, elegance, aesthetics, and innovation.
>> John
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Lou Burnard 
>> <[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>> It's interesting how these little words "interoperable" and "interchange"
>>> arouse such passion. Let me go on record with the view that the "I" 
>>> in TEI is for "interchange" not "interoperability".
>>> Total interoperability is I contend an ignis fatuus, a foolish goal. 
>>> If you want to be able to do on your computer exactly the same with 
>>> my document as I can do with it with the software running on my 
>>> computer you're probably going to be disappointed, until such time 
>>> as we all succumb to the lure of Mr Jobs or whichever avatar of late 
>>> capitalism replaces him. Or we have to agree to define a fairly low 
>>> level of common functionality and hobble our systems to provide only 
>>> that: it's called commodification (no you can't have flash, no you 
>>> can't have a usb interface... they'd only confuse you, trust
>>> me)
>>> Interchange however is another matter. We do it all the time, just 
>>> as we do with natural language. Actually, natural language is not such a bad analogy.
>>> People get by very well at international symposia using a subset of 
>>> the facilities offered by the whole glorious English language, 
>>> without losing the ability to be creative in their use of it (This 
>>> incidentally is why synthetic languages never catch on -- people need to be able to be creative)
>>>   All we need is a well defined common set of concepts, and a 
>>> (preferably fairly small) agreed set of ways of expressing our choice amongst them.
>>> Those choices are not all going to be the same because we all want 
>>> to express our individuality, and a very good thing too, or science 
>>> would never advance.
>>> I think the TEI is the least worst example of such a set of concepts 
>>> so far proposed. I think the technical methods it has now in place 
>>> for customisation and tailoring of that set to the needs of 
>>> particular research communities are pretty good. They could be 
>>> improved, and in particular they need to be made much more 
>>> accessible and more widely understood, but they are functionally up 
>>> to the task of guaranteeing a degree of interchangeability of digital documents which would otherwise be impossible.
>>> On 22/08/11 01:13, Doug Reside wrote:
>>>> Patrick Durusau wrote:
>>>>> 1a. Is the TEI about "interchange?"
>>>>> Rather than setting users up for the disappointment of expecting 
>>>>> to easily benefit from the texts of others or to create texts that 
>>>>> are going to be snapped up by other scholars, let's be realistic 
>>>>> about the difficulties of interchange, under the best of 
>>>>> circumstances and not make it a selling point for the TEI.
>>>> I agree that the TEI is all but useless for interoperable 
>>>> *anything* at the moment, and I likewise acknowledge that even 
>>>> relatively more interoperable markup languages such as HTML still 
>>>> suffer greatly from differing interpretations by software that 
>>>> either ignores the standard
>>>> (IE) or interprets it in slightly different ways (Firefox vs Chrome).
>>>> Still, if we give up the goal of interoperability as a central, 
>>>> even primary, goal of the TEI, then I see no reason:
>>>> * to use it,
>>>> * for any institution to support it, or
>>>> * for any granting agency to recommend its use.
>>>> Without a goal of interoperability, I might as well create my own 
>>>> tags that won't force me to spend a lot of time looking for the 
>>>> appropriate tag for the textual feature I wish to identify.
>>>> The current lack of consistency in TEI encoding (admittedly, in 
>>>> part, the fault of editors like me as much as the standard itself) 
>>>> should be cause for sorrow leading to repentance rather than an 
>>>> excuse to toss out the goal itself.  I can't imagine that most of 
>>>> the libraries and universities that support the TEI do so in the 
>>>> hopes of providing a medium for literary criticism using exceptionally clunky form of XML.
>>>> We already have plenty of better mechanisms for this, and a 
>>>> commented, public viewable Google Doc would serve the purpose far 
>>>> more efficiently.
>>>> Doug
>> --
>> | John A. Walsh
>> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science 
>> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 
>> | www:<>
>> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

Patrick Durusau
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Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300 Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)

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Twitter: patrickDurusau