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On 2012-07-31 02:14, George Corley wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 6:24 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Jörg Rhiemeier, On 30/07/2012 15:44:
>>
>>> I once knew a guy who pronounced _Dúnedain_ as [dʌn i'dein]!  The
>>> "Celeborn" problem has already been mentioned in this thread.
>>>
>>
>> _Celeborn_ starting with _cell_, _Sauron_ starting with _saw_, and
>> _Dunedain_ pronounced  ['dʌnidein] (but not [dʌn i'dein], tho maybe the
>> irregular final stress gives the form an evocative Celticity, cf e.g.
>> _Donegal_) are perfectly reasonable anglicizations and pronunciations of
>> those names. Tolkien had good reasons not to use forms whose anglicizations
>> would be more faithful to the source (-- the importance of fidelity to the
>> source languages; the importance of making Elven Latin remind of Latin),
>> but a reader's use of regular anglicizations is not to be considered a
>> mistake or deplored.
>
>
> I'm sorry but /s/ in Celeborn is a mistake and not a valid anglicisation to
> me.  If it were actual Latin, then it would be acceptable, but it is, in
> fact, a fictional language.  This is why I made the decision some time ago
> never to use <c> for /k/ in any of my conlangs, even if it aesthetically
> fits better than <k>.
>

I do the same, but then I have a tendency to use _c_ for
/tʃ/ and similar, which kind of spoils the lunch!  Moreover
in Swedish */k/ has undergone palatalization to /ɕ/ before
front vowels, and I've actually heard _Kelvar_, in which
Christopher Tolkien kept the _k_ spelling (see below),
pronounced as [ɕɛlvɑ(ɻ)], including the facultative loss of
utterance final /r/ common in these parts.  At least the
palatalization means no loss of phonemic distinctions as
Quenya/Sindarin are concerned. However Sueticizations of
vowel qualities ("u" --> /ʉ/, "o" --> /u/, "a" --> /o/),
_+h_ ("th" --> /t/, "dh" --> /d/~/dh/, "ch" --> /ɕ/), _v/w_
confusion and a total disregard for quantity and stress
placement are rife.  I try to follow Marcus Aurelius's
advice of not pointing out linguistic errors, but to use the
correct form in my reply, and have even tried to write an
article about Tolkien's attempts to reconcile different
influences and aesthetic concerns with his desire for
accuracy in such matters, especially stressing the fact that
he originally used _k_ for Quenya, and that he decided for
_c_ against the advice of Christopher Tolkien (who spelled "Kirith 
Ungol" on theGondor-Mordor map), and against his own
knowledge that Middle Welsh used _k_, the switch to _c_ being
because printers equipped for English and Latin didn't have
enough _k_ types.  All to no avail so far.

As for that Elvish dude he was Silly Born, we just have to live
with it! ;)  And Tokien himself said his real name was Teleporno,
which in its correctness beats any mispronunciation in the world
in outrageousness!

I'm still not decided whether I'd use 'real'
Latinization of Sohlob or some
Anglicization/Sueticization if I ever publish anything
about my conworld Sohldar. I've considered various
options, both English-targeted and Swedish-targeted,
but none is really satisfying. The more or less related
languages have more or less differing phonologies, so
that some sounds which only exist in one language or
another, so that it's OK to transcribe them with the
same letter in the 'real' transliteration, but it would
be a disservice to readers, I feel. Add to that that
the 'real' transcriptions of two of the languages are
crafted to vaguely resemble Old Norse and Old English
respectively, while that of most of the others is meant
to vaguely evoke Turkic or Persian. One language
contrasts +/-nasality on the _word level_; I haven't
even begun contemplating how to render that!

                  'real'     'English'    'Swedish'    Sw. naïve
   -------------  ---------  -----------  -----------  ------------
   /tɕ/           c          ch           tj           /ɕ/
   /ɕ/            ç          sh           sj           /χ/ʃ/
   /(d)ʑ/         j          j            dj           /j/
   /j/            y/j        y/i          y/j          /j/
   /χ/            x          kh           ch           /ɕ/ʃ/χ/
   /ʁ/            q          gh           gh           /g/
   /ɬ/, /r̥/       hl, hr     hl, hr       hl, hr       /l/, /r/
   vcl nasal      h+         h+           h+           vcd nasal
   /ð/            ð          dh           dh           /d/
   /θ/            þ          th           th           /t/
   /u/            u          u            u (o?)       /ʉ/
   /ɒ/            o/å        o            o/å (a?)     /u/o/
   /ɑ/            a          a/â          a ("â"?)     /ɒ/ɑ/
   /æ/            æ/ä        ae/æ/a       ä            /ɛ/
   /ɨ/            e/ë        ie/ë/ï       "ë"/e/"ï"    /e/ɛ/i/
   /ɔ/            o          o/oa/ô       o (å?)       /u/
   /ɛ/            e          e            e            /e/ɛ/
   /y/            ü/y        ue/ü/y       "ü"/y        /ʉ/y/
   /œ/ø/          ö/œ        oe/œ         ö            /ø/
   vwl length     VV/´       VV/^         VV/^         ?

/bpj