On 2012-12-16 22:29, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 9:53 PM, Melroch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Do _r, l_ both denote /R\/? If yes I'd definitely make /B\/ a phoneme and
>> denote it with _r_!
> Sorry, I wasn't able to understand the notation, for I'm not that good at
> SAMPA. Did You mean epiglottal thrill by /RV and bilabial thrill by /BV? If
> this is the case, then my explanation is following.

That's CXS <> which until about a year
ago was used by everyone on this list since the listserv still
messed up Unicode.  It's also very handy when writing on my
'smart' phone, which is dumb when it comes to Unicode...

And it's not V but backslash plus forslash, where the latter
is the closing phonemic transcription delimiter.

And I now realize that you use я for an epiglottal trill
and not as an alternative to ʁ as i first thought.
There is no notation for epiglottal trill in CXS.
Perhaps R\` can be used for epiglottal trill and
R` for epiglottal approximant.  I have used v` for
the labiodental flap already.

(BTW I can't produce an epiglottal trill.  IIRC I
read somewhere that some people are anatomically
disabled when it comes to (some) epiglottal articulations.)

> The aim was to create a language with as little number of consonants that
> would be as exotic as possible. So I've ended up with just 2: [?] and
> [O\_v]. The symbols r, n, h and d (z in previous versions) were thought to
> modify the surrounding vowels. In particular, _r_ should be the sign
> denoting the strident phonation.

I understand the constraints and find them interesting.
I can't help wondering whether the languages of such
a species would have any consonants at all!  I'd
imagine they would have only vowels with varying registers
and phonations.

Imagine a language with some 20 vowel nuances in the
front/back/height dimension, all of which can occur
combined with three quantities and any of modal
voiceless, breathy and creaky voice. I guess that for
humans to be able to pronounce it there would need to
be glottal stops inbetween the vowels! The [ʔ] wouldnˈt
be a phoneme thoughˌ but automatically inserted between
every two phonemes.  That would be way more phonemes than
any known human natlang has!

> Thus, I'd prefer to keep _r_ rather than _l_, especially since all the
> b-sounds will in the end dissipate to u/nasalization. _Yanyarin_ in the end
> sounds more, you know, agressive than _yanyalin.

I didnt mean you should scrap /я/.  It only seemed to me that
since you wrote "l ~ [ʀ]/[я], r ~[я]" you weren't sure whether
_l_ and _r_ would denote two distinct sounds.  You also wrote
"b~ [b]/[ʙ]", and I thought [ʙ] is so cool a sound that you
might make /ʙ/ a phoneme in its own right, and use one of _l r_
for it if they turn out not to be distinct.  Perhaps you
could use _p_ for /ʙ/! (Yeah I'm aware of the level of
weirdness you have to think at to come up with that idea! ;-)

>> /bpj
>> Den söndagen den 16:e december 2012 skrev Nikolay Ivankov:
>>> Following the advises of of Alex Fink, I've revisited the phonology of
>>> Proto-Yanyarin. As before, the collection of consonants that the speakers
>>> of Yanyarin and can pronounce is limited almost entirely to labial to
>>> labio-dental and from uvular to glottal. I have moved the existing sounds
>>> more towards the glottis, so that the sound inventory looks more suited
>> for
>>> a "species with a weak tongue that always sing". The orthography was also
>>> changed, mostly for the sake of eughraphy.
>>> The chart includes:
>>> m             n
>>> b              g   q   '/?
>>> w   d         j    x   h
>>>       s               l   r
>>> Here
>>> m ~ [m]; n~[ŋ]; b~ [b]/[ʙ], g~[ɢ], q ~ [ʡ], '/? ~ [ʔ], w ~ [β], d ~ [ð],
>> j
>>> ~ [ʁ̞]/[ʕ̞], x ~ [ʢ̞], s=?, h ~ [ɦ], l ~ [ʀ]/[я], r ~[я]/[glottal thrill]
>>> I don't know the precise value for ⟨s⟩ by now. The sound depicted by this
>>> letter would not exist in "modern" Yanyarin, and in some point ⟨s⟩ has to
>>> transform into ⟨r⟩ and ⟨d⟩. The voiced glottal thrill is one of the
>>> nonhuman features of the speakers of Yanya.
>>> In Proto- and modern Yanyarin there are 8 vowels:
>>> i,y          v,u
>>> e,ø
>>>               a,o
>>> The main difference of vowel chart form to normal one is that closedness
>> of
>>> the vowels is replaced by pharingealization. This is why I'm not able to
>>> write this chart in the IPA right away. It is worth saying, however, that
>>> in this notation v ~ [ɨ].
>>> Finally, I'd like to have schwa, "schwi" and "schwo" sounds on several
>>> stages of Old Yanyarin and Middle. I haven't decided on the signs for
>> them,
>>> but presumably ⟨z⟩ and ⟨c⟩ would be used for two such sounds. However,
>>> maybe it's better to use IPA for clearness, since this sounds won't be in
>>> use in modern Yanyarin.
>>> Thanks for reading! Any suggestions? What am I missing? And thanks again!
>>> Kolya