On 7 March 2013 14:02, A. da Mek <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> ly and ny seem to me intuitive enough for palatals; these digraphs are used
> for example in Hungarian.

True enough.

> But if the palatals and affricates shall be marked alike, then anything
> intuitive for the first pair will be unintuitive for the second pair.

Exactly! Which is why I stuck with the pipe.

> Maybe l̉ n̉ s̉ z̉ could work; this hook may remind an apostrophe which is
> sometimes used to mark palatalisation and sometimes for a glottal stop,
> which in a combination with a fricative could suggest the plosive onset of
> an affricate.

Gah! l̉ is ugly!

>  In the end, I decided to stick with the pipe.
> There is one disadvantage of non-letter characters - Google does not
> recognize such string as one word.

It's Google's loss, not mine :P .

> I considered to use <è èh àh òh> instead of  <¨ ¨h ªh ºh> which I am now
> writing  for [?], [h], [X\] and [?\], but a text with è used as a consonat
> looks like a file with č written in the Central European codepage and then
> misinterpreted as the Western codepage.
> It is difficult to find some letter for the glottal stop. The letter з may
> remind the glyph used by Egyptologists to transcribe the glottal stop, but
> most people would probably read з either as [Z] or [dz)].

I would personally read it as a vowel, but that's me :P .

On 7 March 2013 17:49, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Too much mouse-pointing and menu-mucking for my taste.

Toolbox has lots of keyboard shortcuts :P .

> I'm basically a plain-text guy. Besides I can sort any
> which way me pleases (almost) from within perl:
I'm more a GUI person myself. I like using the keyboard as much as
possible, but love to be able to fall back on using the mouse if I forget

> <>
> You'll notice it's by the same author. He used to be
> *the* linguist on the CPAN. BTW I have an object-
> oriented wrapper around this module which allows you to
> define a sort-key generating function, chuse the
> normalization form to use during sort[^1], return
> objects which can tell their string value as well as
> their sort key and their family rather than as plain
> strings -- although they stringify to their string
> values! -- get the entries as a list of lists, one for
> each family, and give families arbitrary names like
> "digits". It's in need of documentation, but if anyone
> is interested I might get around to writing that
> documentation.  It was part of a project to write a
> Unicode-aware drop-in replacement for makeindex with
> support for arbitrary sort orders.  Maybe one day...
> [^1]: It's a good idea to use NFD during sorting
> because then letters with unforeseen decomposable
> diacritics get sorted under their base letter rather
> than just ignored!
See, that's how rusty my programming skills are: I understand everything
you write, but have no idea how I'd go around implementing it myself! I
haven't done any serious programming for more than 10 years, and I wasn't
that great to begin with...

>> I've actually discovered a PDF entitled "From Toolbox
>> to LaTeX", with a link to a Perl script and a LaTeX
>> style that claim to do exactly what I want. It's at:
>> tex.pdf I've downloaded the scripts, and it seems
>> that they could be useful as starting point, but
>> there's a lot of work needed before either can be
>> used with my dictionary. You're welcome to scratch
>> your itch on those if you want (my Perl skills are
>> basically non-existent. I'm more of a Ruby guy
>> myself).
> Sorry to say but there was a bug which would cause it
> not to compile right on line 11! Also It's quite
> ancient from days before perl was unicode-aware or
> before XeTeX was around! Anyway my itch got kinda
> piqued, so maybe I'll look into it once my current
> commission is done in a couple of weeks. I'm unlikely
> to get a new commission right away anyway.
See, I would never have found that bug. Perl is not really my forte.

> Anyway you might probably write something in Ruby to
> get your database into a datastructure. The parsing
> code in Text::Shoebox isn't exactly complicated, though
> it too shows its age.
The parsing isn't what I fear most. It's the next step, converting the data
into a useful XeLaTeX file. I'm currently looking at bilingual dictionaries
typeset in LaTeX to see how I could create a template. My LaTeX programming
skills are *very* rusty, so I'd rather not have to create my own styles :P .

> I'm not surprised! I ditched MSW in both senses years
> ago and haven't looked back. That's part of why I'm
> reluctant to use Toolbox even under wine.
I have little choice with my work laptop. At home I use GNU/Linux
exclusively. That computer has never had any other OS installed on it! :)
And I don't mind using Toolbox under Wine, it works pretty well.

> I hardly ever use a WYSIWYG WP program willingly any
> more; it's vim, pandoc and XeLaTeX all over the place.
> (*un*willing = paid work is another matter.  Luckily
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice can open most anything they
> throw at me -- usually .doc(x)!)
At work I *have* to use all kinds of GUIs. Our entire business nearly runs
on Excel! :( Not to mention all the modelling tools I have to use.

> I'd rather have
>> people plainly not knowing how to pronounce words
>> rather than people *thinking* they know how to
>> pronounce words and doing it wrong.
> Very good point indeed!
> But then I suppose you should replace j with y!
Not here in the Netherlands :P .

> And I suppose you know that based on your own
> description of Moten morphophonology and spelling
> lj nj ts dz would be perfectly unambiguous!
Very true. But I decided against those digraphs extremely early in the
design of Moten's orthography. I wanted a true phonemic script, i.e. no
digraphs, even if those would be unambiguous. I don't treat |l, |n, |s and
|z as digraphs either, by the way. They are single letters and part of the

>> In the end, I decided to stick with the pipe. It may
>> be a weird choice, but it works for me, and it now
>> *feels* like part of Moten's identity. It gives it a
>> unique look on the page at least :) .
> I can't blame you.  Back in typewriter days I used
> overstruck slash with impunity! :-)
Yeah, Moten is definitely pre-Internet :P .
 Well Christophe could always (ab)use 01C0 LATIN LETTER

Ouch! :P
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.