2013/12/24 BPJ <[log in to unmask]>:
> Den tisdagen den 24:e december 2013 skrev Elena ``of Valhalla'':
>> On 2013-12-23 at 18:06:53 +0100, BPJ wrote:
>> > Today at lunch I sat next to a woman and a young girl who conversed with
>> > each other each speaking a different language.
>> It happened to me, but only between related languages.
>> On the other hand, they tended to speak a very italianized dialect
>> of WL, and most people in Italy has been conditioned to think
>> about local languages not as languages, but as debased variants
>> of Italian, so they probably didn't even realize we were
>> speaking a different language.
> While I'd hesitate about deciding the dialect/languge issue for Scandinavia
> as a whole I've been lecturing to roomfulls of people trying to hammer in
> three simple points:
> 1. Traditional dialect is not a debased form of the standard language but a
> separate and often more genuine (as in not conlanged with) development from
> a common ancestor.
> 2. A dialect is more than a local pronunciation of the standard language.
> 3. Speak dialect to your (grand)children. They will learn the standard
> language from TV anyway.
> It's a losing battle anyway of course. The bad attitudes were in place
> already when my great grandmother lost her competence in Standard Swedish
> in old age. Everybody was embarrassed over that in the middle of the 20th
> century. They apologized to her doctor and he answered that it was OK; he
>  was after all born on the next island from her and they had no problem
> communicating!
> @Leonardo: yes Portuguese and Italian are both conservative compared to
> Spanish.

Curiously, the data in the article below doesn't show the level of
"lexical similarity" between Italian and Portuguese, but it shows the
same level of "lexical similarity" for the pairs Italian-French and
Portuguese-Spanish: 89%.

Actually, those who study Italian and French can note that there are
lots of cognates between them, but with differences of pronunciation
that make them completely uninteligible to those who are not used to
the phonotactics of those languages: manger-mangiare, parler-parlare,
lundý-lunedi, demande-domanda, etc. The usage of avoir-avere and
ŕtre-essere as auxiliaries is also very similar.

> When I was in Spain in my early twenties -- before my stay in Iceland even
> -- I essentially spoke Latin in the ablative with locally softened soft
> C/G, articles and some adapted vocabulary like *grande* to everybody just
> as I had done in Italy with success. It worked considerably better in
> Catalonia than further south.
> This modernized Latin even worked with older people in Greece who as a rule
> knew a little Italian. At a pinch I could throw in an ancient Greek word
> with modernized pronunciation. I unwittingly spoke Lingua Franca!


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