For anyone interesting who is not quite certain what conlang I'm referring to below, see: http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Britannic/index.html I have been meaning to write this for some time, but have been extremely busy over the past week. But here it is at last. Pondering further on question Alex asked, has helped me to decide on the question I first raised on the list on 15th of this month. I deal with the two matters separately below. PART 1. On 17/03/2014 10:47, Alex Fink wrote: > Ray, I noticed in one of your provisional examples of > orthographic convention the entry _formage_ = "cheese". > But in Welsh we have _caws_ 'cheese' from Latin CÁSEUM. It does. > Does that not suggest that in the Vulgar Latin of Britain > it was CÁSEUM rather than FORMÁTICUM that was used for > 'cheese', and therefore that we'd expect to be retained > in British Romance? Yes and no. At the time of the Claudian invasion I have no doubt that the VL was _caseu_ everywhere. Hence this form becomes a loan word in Brittonic, from which the modern Welsh _caws_ /kaus/ and Cornish _keus_ /kø:z/ or /ke:z/, depending on the variety of Cornish you're using, and Breton _keuz_ /køz/ are all derived. Derivatives of this word remain until today in the Iberian peninsula (Span. _queso_; Port. _queijo_), which had been Romanized at an early date, and in conservative Sardinian _casu_. But where Latin was spoken the longest, i.e. Italy, we find _formaggio_. I guess slang and neologisms that catch on tend to develop in a language's homeland and then spread out from there. We find the *formaticum word to the south in Sicily (_furmaggiu_) and northward throughout the Gallo-Roman and Raetian areas, even penetrating into Iberian peninsula in Catalan _formatge_. It is possible that this word had already passed over the Channel from Gaul before Latin collapsed in the urban centers of east Britain in the 5th century. I am assuming that in BART: - there was no 5th collapse of the Latin speaking urban centers of Britain; - continuum of Romance dialects from Sicily through to the lowlands of Scotland. Therefore, I consider it likely in BART (but not in Ill Bethisad) that the *formaticum word will have crossed the Channel into the Romance of Britain. Tho whether the "Bretainois" form should be _formage_ or _f(o)urmage_ is another matter :) ========================================================== PART 2. On 15/03/2014 09:11, R A Brown wrote: > > ... I pointed out to Alex that having /ɨ/ was a pretty > original feature - the only other Romancelang with this > as a phoneme is Romanian. But I added that I was having > second thoughts about the plausibility of this. > > Do I like this only because it's novel and makes my > conlang distinctive? I am sure the truthful answer is "yes." But I must not sacrifice plausibility to "it's something I like." I now realize the shift [u] → [ʉ] → [ɨ] I envisaged for "Bretainois" is a Welsh bogoism! It would have been OK in Brithenig, tho in fact it does not even occur there, but it ain't OK in the British Romance of BART. The shift in Gallo-Romance and the Reato-Romance langs is [u] → [y], and in some of the Raeto-Romance langs [u] → [y] → [i]. For the same reasons that I accept _fourmage_ above, I must accept that the most plausible development for "Bretainois" is [u] → [y] → [i], and shall be amending the Vowels page accordingly. -- Ray ================================== http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt, wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun." [J.G. Hamann, 1760] "A mind that thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language".