Dear Hannah, Philipp,

As James says, the ideal solution is probably to replace the older catalogue indication of format/size with modern measurement.
In practice this may not be possible, and you may be dependant on the catalogue information.
I also understand your message to say that your image viewer expects the elements <dimensions>, <height>, and <width> containing actual values.
To build on Paul's answer, a solution would seem to be using empty <height/> and <width/> elements to provide approximate modern equivalents to the older catalogue formats. (The underlying assumptions would need to be explained somewhere of course.) For example an approximate equivalent of octavo size might be 210 x 150 mm. This could be expressed in TEI as:

<extent>
                           <measure type="catalogueFormat">8o</measure> 
                           <dimensions type="leaf" precision="low">
                                    <height unit="mm" quantity="210"/>
                                    <width unit="mm" quantity="150"/></dimensions>
                                         
                        </extent>

Or the @max, @min attributes could express a potential range for octavo height/ width.

Matthew

> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:00:42 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: TEI-L Digest - 7 Nov 2015 to 10 Nov 2015 (#2015-228)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> There are 7 messages totaling 816 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Coordinate attributes vs. CSS / <surface> and @points
> 2. Beckett Digital Manuscript Project: Krapp's Last Tape
> 3. MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems (4)
> 4. A message from Sebastian
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:55:11 +0100
> From: Martin de la Iglesia <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Coordinate attributes vs. CSS / <surface> and @points
>
> Thank you for your suggestions, Lou & Frederik.
> Even if TEI coordinates and CSS positioning are incompatible, that
> doesn't necessarily mean their combination should be discouraged. It
> just needs to be made clear that they refer to different positioning
> systems, so that if processed, they are processed independently.
> Either way, the Guidelines need to address this. But isn't there a major
> overhaul of these Guidelines sections underway anyway?
>
>
>
> --
> Martin de la Iglesia
> Metadata and Data Conversion
>
> Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
> Göttingen State and University Library
> D-37073 Göttingen
>
> Papendiek 14 (Historical Building, Room 1.602)
> +49 551 39-14070 (Tel.)
> +49 551 39-3468 (Fax)
>
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/
>
>
>
> Am 06.11.2015 um 09:54 schrieb Frederik Elwert:
> > Dear Martin, dear all,
> >
> > I think that’s an interesting question.
> >
> > Am 06.11.2015 um 09:13 schrieb Martin de la Iglesia:
> >> last week at the SIG Text & Graphics meeting we discussed, among other
> >> things, an issue related to the recent addition of @points to <surface>
> >> (<http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/488/>): in several
> >> places, the Guidelines suggest to make use of the CSS box model (e.g.
> >> "margin-top: 0.5em" in 2.3.4.1 Rendition) or other means of
> >> horizontal/vertical positioning with CSS (e.g. "text-align: center" in
> >> the <rendition> example). What happens if such horizontal/vertical
> >> positioning code occurs within a non-rectangular writing area? Consider
> >> this example:
> >>
> >> <surface ulx="0" uly="0" lrx="3" lry="3">
> >> <zone points="1,1 2,3 3,2">
> >> <surface>
> >> <zone style="margin-top:0.5; margin-left:0.5">
> >> <line>some text here</line>
> >> </zone>
> >> </surface>
> >> </zone>
> >> </surface>
> >>
> >> What would this code mean? Is the text inside (i.e. "margin-top:0.5;
> >> margin-left:0.5" is meant to be relative to the physical borders of the
> >> parent <surface>) or outside (i.e. relative to the grid specified in the
> >> grandparent <surface>) the triangle?
> > I think it would make sense to have a look at CSS shapes:
> > http://alistapart.com/article/css-shapes-101 One should probably
> > discourage the use of margin-* and padding-* in combination with
> > @points, and rather use shape-padding. @points would probably roughly
> > translate to CSS shape-inside: polygon().
> >
> >> Another problem is that you'd normally have to specify units in CSS
> >> (i.e. the code above is not valid CSS), whereas you can't specify the
> >> unit for @points, @ulx etc. How do I say both the CSS and coordinate
> >> attributes are meant to use the same unit, say, centimetres? How do I
> >> say they're not?
> > I don’t remember the details, but I think SVG has a way of solving that.
> > They also use unit-less coordinates but allow for CSS as well.
> >
> >> Neither is it clear to me how the new surface/@points can actually be
> >> used. The Guidelines say, coordinate attributes in <surface> specify the
> >> grid, while coordinate attributes in <zone> specify a position within
> >> such a grid. Can I use surface/@points to specify a position on a grid?
> >> Does the grid need to be specified in the same <surface>, or in an
> >> ancestor <surface>?
> > I see your point, but without any answer.
> >
> > Best,
> > Frederik
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:01:43 +0100
> From: Wout Dillen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Beckett Digital Manuscript Project: Krapp's Last Tape
>
> The Beckett Digital Manuscript Project is proud to announce the publication of a digital genetic edition of Samuel Beckett’s Krapp’s Last Tape / La Dernière Bande: www.beckettarchive.org <http://www.beckettarchive.org/>.
>
> This genetic edition enables users to examine the writing process of Krapp’s Last Tape, and the (self-)translation process of La dernière bande, by means of digital facsimiles and transcriptions of Beckett’s drafts and other textual versions.
>
> Other genetic editions that are available are: L’Innommable / The Unnamable; Stirrings Still / Soubresauts; and Comment dire / what is the word.
>
> The publication of the new module coincides with the presentation of a new interface for the edition, and a number of new features in the edition’s free zone.
>
> The Beckett Digital Manuscript Project is a collaboration between the Centre for Manuscript Genetics (University of Antwerp), the Beckett International Foundation (University of Reading) and the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center (University of Texas at Austin), with the kind permission of the Estate of Samuel Beckett and the support of the European Research Council.
>
> The purpose of the Beckett Digital Manuscript Project is to reunite the manuscripts of Samuel Beckett's works in a digital way, and to facilitate genetic research: the project brings together digital facsimiles of documents that are now preserved in different holding libraries, and adds transcriptions of Beckett's manuscripts, tools for bilingual and genetic version comparison, a search engine, and an analysis of the textual genesis of his works.
>
> An accompanying monograph on the work’s genesis will shortly be available through University Press Antwerp and Bloomsbury Academic.
>
> We hope you’ll find this new digital scholarly edition useful. For more information, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
> Best wishes,
> on behalf of the Beckett Digital Manuscript Project,
> Dirk Van Hulle
>
> Note: The research leading to these results has received funding from the European Research Council under the European Union’s Seventh Framework Programme (FP7/2007-2013) / ERC grant agreement n° 313609.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:57:32 +0100
> From: Philipp Vanscheidt <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems
>
> Dear *,
>
> maybe we have missed something, but we have not found a simple and
> satisfying way to state measurements in different units and measuring
> systems in msDesc. The viewer* we use for our digital images expects
> something like:
>
> <tei:extent>
> <tei:measure type="leavesCount">118 Bl.</⁠tei:measure>
> <tei:dimensions type="leaf" unit="cm">
> <tei:height>23,5</⁠tei:height>
> <tei:width>14,5</⁠tei:width>
> </⁠tei:dimensions>
> </⁠tei:extent>
>
> We have information from older catalogues in the form of 8°, 4°, etc,
> but we want to measure and add information in mm or cm. But this does
> not seem to be as simple as we expected.
>
> Solution 1)
>
> <dimensions type="leaf">
> <height>8°</⁠height>
> <height unit="cm">20</⁠height>
> </⁠dimensions>
>
> Remark: This is not possible because height cannot be repeated in
> dimensiones and indeed it maybe said that 8° does not only relate to
> height.
>
> Solution 2)
>
> <dimensions type="leaf">
> <height unit="cm" >20</⁠height>
> </⁠dimensions>
> <dimensions type="binding">
> <height>8°</⁠height>
> </⁠dimensions>
>
> Remark: The solution to repeat dimensions seems a littlebit strange to
> us. In this case we distinguish between the objects the measurements are
> related to (leaf, binding) but this would obviously not work if you want
> to speak about the same object and state the information in different
> measuring systems.
>
> Solution 3)
>
> We adapted our schema and used measureGrp with @types="leaves|binding"
> with a measure element to indicate the book format by number of times a
> sheet has been folded, eg.:
>
> <tei:extent>
> <tei:measureGrp type="binding">
> <tei:measure type="format">8°</⁠tei:measure>
> </⁠tei:measureGrp>
> </⁠tei:extent>
>
> Remark: This does not fit the requirements of the viewer and we are not
> even sure if this is a good solution at all.
>
> We would be happy if you share your experiences and thoughts about this
> subject with us.
>
> Best,
> Hannah Busch (Trier) and Philipp Vanscheidt (Darmstadt)
>
> * http://dfg-viewer.de/ueber-das-projekt/
>
> --
> Technische Universität Darmstadt, Institut für Sprach- und
> Literaturwissenschaft
> Dolivostraße 15, 64293 Darmstadt
> Tel.: 06151/1657405
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:18:40 +0000
> From: James Cummings <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems
>
> Hi all,
>
> I may be misunderstanding but the @unit attribute is not
> generally referring to the human readable text (e.g. when one is
> transcribing an existing manuscript description) but the
> normalised @quantity that is provided.
>
> So what is wrong with:
>
> <height unit="mm" quantity="190">8°</⁠height>
>
> Or something like that.
>
> I do agree though, that an octavo format isn't precisely to do
> with height and width, but more accurately the collation format
> of the book. I'd be putting this information under <collation>
> and just providing modern measurements (mm in preference ;-) )
> for the dimensions.
>
> -James
>
> On 10/11/15 16:57, Philipp Vanscheidt wrote:
> > Dear *,
> >
> > maybe we have missed something, but we have not found a simple
> > and satisfying way to state measurements in different units and
> > measuring systems in msDesc. The viewer* we use for our digital
> > images expects something like:
> >
> > <tei:extent>
> > <tei:measure type="leavesCount">118 Bl.</⁠tei:measure>
> > <tei:dimensions type="leaf" unit="cm">
> > <tei:height>23,5</⁠tei:height>
> > <tei:width>14,5</⁠tei:width>
> > </⁠tei:dimensions>
> > </⁠tei:extent>
> >
> > We have information from older catalogues in the form of 8°,
> > 4°, etc, but we want to measure and add information in mm or
> > cm. But this does not seem to be as simple as we expected.
> >
> > Solution 1)
> >
> > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > <height unit="cm">20</⁠height>
> > </⁠dimensions>
> >
> > Remark: This is not possible because height cannot be repeated
> > in dimensiones and indeed it maybe said that 8° does not only
> > relate to height.
> >
> > Solution 2)
> >
> > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > <height unit="cm" >20</⁠height>
> > </⁠dimensions>
> > <dimensions type="binding">
> > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > </⁠dimensions>
> >
> > Remark: The solution to repeat dimensions seems a littlebit
> > strange to us. In this case we distinguish between the objects
> > the measurements are related to (leaf, binding) but this would
> > obviously not work if you want to speak about the same object
> > and state the information in different measuring systems.
> >
> > Solution 3)
> >
> > We adapted our schema and used measureGrp with
> > @types="leaves|binding" with a measure element to indicate the
> > book format by number of times a sheet has been folded, eg.:
> >
> > <tei:extent>
> > <tei:measureGrp type="binding">
> > <tei:measure type="format">8°</⁠tei:measure>
> > </⁠tei:measureGrp>
> > </⁠tei:extent>
> >
> > Remark: This does not fit the requirements of the viewer and we
> > are not even sure if this is a good solution at all.
> >
> > We would be happy if you share your experiences and thoughts
> > about this subject with us.
> >
> > Best,
> > Hannah Busch (Trier) and Philipp Vanscheidt (Darmstadt)
> >
> > * http://dfg-viewer.de/ueber-das-projekt/
> >
>
>
> --
> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford TEI
> Consultations: [log in to unmask]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:41:45 -0500
> From: Paul Schaffner <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems
>
> Given that the traditional designations (still in use, I might add)
> frequently stand in for, but do not exactly represent height, or
> width, or even 'dimensions', is there any reason not to use the
> more generic <measure> element within <extent>?
>
> <extent>
> <measure type="format">small 8°</measure>
> <dimensions>
> <height/>
> <width/>
> </dimensions>
> </extent>
>
> I'm a little dubious about putting this info in collation,
> though it obviously has some relevance there -- since
> in so many descriptions it is very close to a description of
> size (especially in formulations like 'large folio' etc.).
>
> Mind, I don't actually use this set of elements, so I
> may have got it all wrong.
>
> pfs
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015, at 12:18, James Cummings wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I may be misunderstanding but the @unit attribute is not
> > generally referring to the human readable text (e.g. when one is
> > transcribing an existing manuscript description) but the
> > normalised @quantity that is provided.
> >
> > So what is wrong with:
> >
> > <height unit="mm" quantity="190">8°</⁠height>
> >
> > Or something like that.
> >
> > I do agree though, that an octavo format isn't precisely to do
> > with height and width, but more accurately the collation format
> > of the book. I'd be putting this information under <collation>
> > and just providing modern measurements (mm in preference ;-) )
> > for the dimensions.
> >
> > -James
> >
> > On 10/11/15 16:57, Philipp Vanscheidt wrote:
> > > Dear *,
> > >
> > > maybe we have missed something, but we have not found a simple
> > > and satisfying way to state measurements in different units and
> > > measuring systems in msDesc. The viewer* we use for our digital
> > > images expects something like:
> > >
> > > <tei:extent>
> > > <tei:measure type="leavesCount">118 Bl.</⁠tei:measure>
> > > <tei:dimensions type="leaf" unit="cm">
> > > <tei:height>23,5</⁠tei:height>
> > > <tei:width>14,5</⁠tei:width>
> > > </⁠tei:dimensions>
> > > </⁠tei:extent>
> > >
> > > We have information from older catalogues in the form of 8°,
> > > 4°, etc, but we want to measure and add information in mm or
> > > cm. But this does not seem to be as simple as we expected.
> > >
> > > Solution 1)
> > >
> > > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > > <height unit="cm">20</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > >
> > > Remark: This is not possible because height cannot be repeated
> > > in dimensiones and indeed it maybe said that 8° does not only
> > > relate to height.
> > >
> > > Solution 2)
> > >
> > > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > > <height unit="cm" >20</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > > <dimensions type="binding">
> > > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > >
> > > Remark: The solution to repeat dimensions seems a littlebit
> > > strange to us. In this case we distinguish between the objects
> > > the measurements are related to (leaf, binding) but this would
> > > obviously not work if you want to speak about the same object
> > > and state the information in different measuring systems.
> > >
> > > Solution 3)
> > >
> > > We adapted our schema and used measureGrp with
> > > @types="leaves|binding" with a measure element to indicate the
> > > book format by number of times a sheet has been folded, eg.:
> > >
> > > <tei:extent>
> > > <tei:measureGrp type="binding">
> > > <tei:measure type="format">8°</⁠tei:measure>
> > > </⁠tei:measureGrp>
> > > </⁠tei:extent>
> > >
> > > Remark: This does not fit the requirements of the viewer and we
> > > are not even sure if this is a good solution at all.
> > >
> > > We would be happy if you share your experiences and thoughts
> > > about this subject with us.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Hannah Busch (Trier) and Philipp Vanscheidt (Darmstadt)
> > >
> > > * http://dfg-viewer.de/ueber-das-projekt/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford TEI
> > Consultations: [log in to unmask]
> --
> Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service
> [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:34:16 +0000
> From: "Pierazzo, Elena" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: A message from Sebastian
>
> Dear All,
>
> I’m forwarding to you a message from Sebastian Rahz. As many of you already know, Sebastian has taken early retirement and is not very well. During the Members’ Meeting in Lyon we collected messages and good wishes on a card which he has now received. His message si meant to thank for this card.
> For the people that have not yet had the opportunity to thank Sebastian for his outstanding contribution to the TEI, I have created a Google doc where you can add your messages; I will then send it to him in a week. I’m doing this just so we don’t tire him too much with many individual e-mails. Please use this link:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yd5k73eRN3_gJVj-XcBIpGLU88CoumEwtxu3cVkCNXE/edit?usp=sharing
>
> Best wishes
> Elena
>
>
>
> Dear gang ,
> I was humbled and honoured to receive all your nice comments in the card James brought from you last week. It means a lot to me to have your best wishes and appreciation.
> Nice to be remembered by so many of you. It has been a pleasure to work with so many of you in the TEI.
> All the best
>
> Sebastian
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:04:28 +0000
> From: Lou Burnard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems
>
> I entirely agree with Paul suggestion of using measure here.but please don't supply dimensions at all in that case.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®|PRO
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Paul Schaffner
> Date:11/10/2015 17:41 (GMT+00:00)
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: MsDesc: dimensions in different measuring systems
>
> Given that the traditional designations (still in use, I might add)
> frequently stand in for, but do not exactly represent height, or
> width, or even 'dimensions', is there any reason not to use the
> more generic <measure> element within <extent>?
>
> <extent>
> <measure type="format">small 8°</measure>
> <dimensions>
> <height/>
> <width/>
> </dimensions>
> </extent>
>
> I'm a little dubious about putting this info in collation,
> though it obviously has some relevance there -- since
> in so many descriptions it is very close to a description of
> size (especially in formulations like 'large folio' etc.).
>
> Mind, I don't actually use this set of elements, so I
> may have got it all wrong.
>
> pfs
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015, at 12:18, James Cummings wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I may be misunderstanding but the @unit attribute is not
> > generally referring to the human readable text (e.g. when one is
> > transcribing an existing manuscript description) but the
> > normalised @quantity that is provided.
> >
> > So what is wrong with:
> >
> > <height unit="mm" quantity="190">8°</⁠height>
> >
> > Or something like that.
> >
> > I do agree though, that an octavo format isn't precisely to do
> > with height and width, but more accurately the collation format
> > of the book. I'd be putting this information under <collation>
> > and just providing modern measurements (mm in preference ;-) )
> > for the dimensions.
> >
> > -James
> >
> > On 10/11/15 16:57, Philipp Vanscheidt wrote:
> > > Dear *,
> > >
> > > maybe we have missed something, but we have not found a simple
> > > and satisfying way to state measurements in different units and
> > > measuring systems in msDesc. The viewer* we use for our digital
> > > images expects something like:
> > >
> > > <tei:extent>
> > > <tei:measure type="leavesCount">118 Bl.</⁠tei:measure>
> > > <tei:dimensions type="leaf" unit="cm">
> > > <tei:height>23,5</⁠tei:height>
> > > <tei:width>14,5</⁠tei:width>
> > > </⁠tei:dimensions>
> > > </⁠tei:extent>
> > >
> > > We have information from older catalogues in the form of 8°,
> > > 4°, etc, but we want to measure and add information in mm or
> > > cm. But this does not seem to be as simple as we expected.
> > >
> > > Solution 1)
> > >
> > > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > > <height unit="cm">20</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > >
> > > Remark: This is not possible because height cannot be repeated
> > > in dimensiones and indeed it maybe said that 8° does not only
> > > relate to height.
> > >
> > > Solution 2)
> > >
> > > <dimensions type="leaf">
> > > <height unit="cm" >20</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > > <dimensions type="binding">
> > > <height>8°</⁠height>
> > > </⁠dimensions>
> > >
> > > Remark: The solution to repeat dimensions seems a littlebit
> > > strange to us. In this case we distinguish between the objects
> > > the measurements are related to (leaf, binding) but this would
> > > obviously not work if you want to speak about the same object
> > > and state the information in different measuring systems.
> > >
> > > Solution 3)
> > >
> > > We adapted our schema and used measureGrp with
> > > @types="leaves|binding" with a measure element to indicate the
> > > book format by number of times a sheet has been folded, eg.:
> > >
> > > <tei:extent>
> > > <tei:measureGrp type="binding">
> > > <tei:measure type="format">8°</⁠tei:measure>
> > > </⁠tei:measureGrp>
> > > </⁠tei:extent>
> > >
> > > Remark: This does not fit the requirements of the viewer and we
> > > are not even sure if this is a good solution at all.
> > >
> > > We would be happy if you share your experiences and thoughts
> > > about this subject with us.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Hannah Busch (Trier) and Philipp Vanscheidt (Darmstadt)
> > >
> > > * http://dfg-viewer.de/ueber-das-projekt/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford TEI
> > Consultations: [log in to unmask]
> --
> Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service
> [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TEI-L Digest - 7 Nov 2015 to 10 Nov 2015 (#2015-228)
> ***********************************************************