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On 06/04/2017 20:10, Mike S. wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 4:24 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>> Hebrew names are often partially Latinized, e.g. Jesu
>> takes the nominative -s (Jesus) and accusative -m
>> (Jesum) but is invariable for the other cases.
>>
>
> As a side note, wouldn't you agree the declension of
> "Jesus", irregular in Latin, is based on that of Greek
> Ἰησοῦς, assuming you substitute final nu with -m in the
> accusative and fill in the ablative in the obvious way?

Well, yes. Latin originally got all its Biblical nouns via
Greek from either the Septuagint or the various writings
that eventually made up the New Testament.


[snip]
> Presumably "Jesus", being a revered name, would have
> prompted Latin speaking Christians to be extra diligent

It was the name of the gut we know in English as Joshua long
before Jesus of Nazareth.  Joshua is still rendered as
_Iēsūs_ in Latin versions of the New Testament, even Jerome
used a form closer to the Hebrew (Iōsue) in his revisions of
the Old Testament.

> in not tarnishing Jesus' name with mundane-sounding Latin
> 4th-decl endings, even though the shape of the word
> clearly invited them.

Personally I doubt whether there would have been any strong
urge to give the noun 4th declensions endings because:
- Iēsūs ended in -ūs which was no more the nominative ending
of 4th declension than it was of the 2nd;
- there are no proper nouns with 4th (or 5th) declensions
endings in Latin.

> At any rate, "Jesus" is a special, interesting case.
> For reference: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Iesus#Latin
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B8%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

Yes,
>
>
which don't contradict what I have written above.
[snip]
>
>
> It's good to note that inflected languages need not
> inflect *every* proper noun. To be clear, in light of the
> OP, I was just pointing out that most languages that
> inflect nouns do inflect proper nouns, contra the
> initial surprise of some monoglot speakers of uninflected
>  languages.

I would imagine that all inflected languages will also
inflect 'native' proper nouns.  Why should they not?

The difficulty will be in accommodating non-native nouns;
but even there there will be tendency, e.g Kǒng Fūzǐ ->
Confucius (gen. Confucii).
---------------------------------------------------------------

On 06/04/2017 20:26, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Indeed, in Russian a name is inflected as a noun if it
> can
be, but a
> woman's name having an unusual shape is indeclinable,
> even
if her husband's
> name is declined normally.
>

Interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------

On 06/04/2017 16:39, David McCann wrote:
[snip]
>
> Adapting borrowings is probably the norm in the world, as
> shown by the Icelandic example.

I suspect that in languages with _fusional_ endings we will
always get the sort of mix we find in Latin, i.e. complete
adaptation if possible and noun is commonly use; partial
adaptation or simple indeclinable.  MorphemeAddict's
observation regarding Russian is interesting in that respect.

The Icelandic info given by Aidan Aannestad and Melroch seem
to imply official government policy.  It doesn't really shed
much light on languages that develop without either
government interference of that of a body like l'Acadamie
française.  Also they seem to apply only to immigrants and
visitors to Iceland.  But looking on the Internet it would
seem that Icelandic does not do this with non-Icelandic such
as Xi Jinping (see below).

> In the 16th century, the printer Henri Etienne was not
> only Henricus Stephanus in his Latin books, but Harry
> Stevens in his English ones!

Hardly surprising.  throughout the Middle Ages before
standard forms of national languages emerged, people were
always baptized in Latin, thus both _Henricus_ and
_Stephanus_ had been around for a long time (Stephanus
indeed being Biblical).  Indeed the practice continued in
the Catholic Church right until the introduction of the
vernacular in worship after Vatican II.  Thus my eldest son,
Justin, was baptized 'Justinus' (but my younger son 'Martin,
was just plain English Martin).

> I always wince when I see Henricus Figulus transmogrified
> into Harrius Potter.

But 'Winnie the Pooh' is just 'Winnie ille Pu'   :)

> The Turks write an apostrophe before an inflection added
>  to a proper noun, to avoid confusion: Bağdad'a "to
> Baghdad", Uganda'da "to Uganda", Londra'ya, Şanghay'a,
> etc.

Yes indeed - but Turkish has agglutinative flexions; I
suspect the norm in agglutinative languages is indeed to add
these to proper nouns. Indeed, when I look at the Turkish
Wikipedia entry for _Xi Jinping_ I find that he becomes _Şi
Cinping_ and looking at the entry I find the inflected form
_Şi Cinping'i_.

But both the Latin and the Icelandic entries have
indeclinable _Xi Jinping_; interesting while the Icelandic
entry simply has _Donald Trump_, the Latin has, exactly as I
would expect_ the partial adaptation _Donaldus Trump_  ;)

Ray