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>
> No, Larry Trask called it the _allative_ - it's the *same*
> case that some call _adlative_.  They are not different cases.

You didn't understand what I meant here. I didn't mean that Dr. Trask
didn't recognize the grammatical form that he called the allative, just
that he preferred not to use the term "adlative."


> Purists like BPJ and me will prefer _allative_ while others
> may prefer _adlative_.  But I really don't want to get into
> a tedious discussion of whether _allative_ or _adlative_ is
> the "proper" form - it is as pointless as arguing whether
> _aluminum_ or _aluminium_ is the "proper" name of the
> element Al (atomic weight 13).


You're quite right. This is a pointless argument. But I'd like to take this
opportunity to post the extensive case system of Proto-Language A, the
language where morphology and syntax are indistinguishable. It illustrates
the distinction between lative and essive cases rather nicely, I think.
(Please think of this as an engelang or something. It is NOT a kitchen sink
conlang.)

*PROTO-LANGUAGE A*

*Noun Declension*

*Basic Cases*

*Case*

*Usage*

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Plural*

Nominative

Used with the subject of an transitive verb

N/A

ae-

N/A

Switch Referent Nominative

Used with the subject of a clause different than that of the preceding
clause

án-

ána-

anál-

Genitive

Indicates relationship, composition, origin, reference, and composition

ná-

ela-

-árd

Dative

Used with the indirect object of a sentence

ana-

-im

-háð

Accusative

Used with the Direct Object of a sentence

-áð

-öl

hál-

Possessive

Used to indicate possession

-atár

gira-

-k

Vocative

Used for addressing a person

á-

ö-

i-

*Lative cases*

*Case*

*Usage*

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Plural*

Abegressive

Beginning of movement away from

-yál

-yár

yár-

Ablative

Movement away from

-fer

-fir

-fár

Abrectlative

Movement away from a vertical surface

-stel

-stál

-stil

Adbaslative

Movement to the base of

-ger

hir-

há-

Adcirclative

Movement to around

drá-

drī-

drö-

Adegressive

Beginning of movement to

bár-

-búr

-bál

Adextralative

Movement to the base of

-lan

-lin

-nil

Adlative

Movement near

-frúl

-thel

-yirth

Adverslative

Movement against

-ne

-ná

-nü

Allative

Movement onto

-ár

-ir

-er

Apudlative

Movement into presence of

-lē

-lö

-lö

Baslative

Movement to the base of

-trá

-tre

-trö

Circlative

Movement around

-kúm

-kim

-kil

Defenestrative

Movement through an opening in a vertical surface

brö-

per-

lek-

Delative

Movement from a surface

-ker

-kúr

ker-

Elative

Movement out of something

-aen

-ás

-els

Extralative

Movement to the outside of something from the inside of it

-ü

-úl

-el

Hoclative

Movement to the far side of

-er

-ef

-el

Idlative

Movement to the near side of

-sál

-sád

-sár

Illative

Movement into

-ád

-ind

-ent

Lative

Movement to

-ád

-id

-ed

Perlative

Movement through or along

-vá

-vö

-vi

Postlative

Movement behind

-der

-del

-des

Priorlative

Movement in front of

-gel

-gál

-gás

Prolative

Movement along a surface

-at

-ilt

-elt

Rectlative

Movement onto a vertical surface

-inúr

-inet

-neg

Subablative

Movement away from underneath

-pál

-pil

pi-

Sublative

Movement underneath

-öhá

-öhár

-öhir

Superablative

Movement away from above

-mál

-mil

fe-

Superlative

Movement above

-úlf

-úm

-úr

Supracirclative

Movement above and around

-váj

-vá

-vál

Tenlative

Movement as far as

vir-

bir-

rök-

Translative

Movement across

-kál

-túr

-túl

Verslative

Movement towards

gál-

-hel

-hrál

*Essive cases*

*Cases*

*Usage*

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Plural*

Adessive

Adjacent location

-áv

-elv

-úlv

Adversessive

Against something

duil-

duith-

dyak-

Apudessive

In the presence of

uöīl-

svá-

drás-

Basessive

At the base of

eth-

áth-

thál-

Circlaessive

Around

with-

áreth-

wú-

Essive

In the capacity of

en-

án-

ön-

Exessive

Marking a transition from one condition to another

-hī

-hel

-hin

Extraessive

Outside

wer-

wed-

hrel-

Hocessive

On the far side of

tál-

dwir-

fwir-

Idessive

On the near side of

shál-

shil-

shúl-

Inessive

Inside of

-te

-ter

-tál

Interessive

Among

weth-

wár-

wil-

Intrative

Between

-am

-em

-im

Locative

Marks location

-din

-dán

ðáv-

Pertingent

In contact with

-eln

-iln

-án

Postessive

Behind

ðish-

et-

nel-

Prioressive

In front of

mál-

shák-

shá-

Subessive

Under

-si

-dis

üir-

Superessive

On top of

-üna

-üni

stál-

Supracirclaessive

Above and around

-eth

-taer

-vral

Supraessive

Above

-del

eth-

-ást

Terminessive

At the end of

-ien

nev-

háth-



*Auxiliary Cases*

*Cases*

*Usage*

*Singular*

*Dual*

*Plural*

Abessive

Lack of

bár-

bör-

búr-

Aborientative

Facing away from

sálv-

shöa-

dvel-

Adorientative

Facing towards

ðin-

rüa-

rösh-

Accordative

According to

this-

thes-

thös-

Benefactive

For, for the benefit of, intended for

-lá

-lo

-ley

Causal

Because of

-káü

-köa

-küī

Comitative

In company with

rīs-

ril-

rál-

Comparative

Used in comparison

sre-

skrē-

gáv-

Deative

Concerning

me-

mil-

reth-

Distributive

Distribution by piece

thel-

ðil-

ðás-

Durative

How long

ár-

ál-

ád-

Egressive

From

-áf

if-

-ef

Gratiative

In return for

den-

nev-

jiü-

Interative

During

esh-

mesh-

ishir-

Instrumental

Indicates means

kel-

kit-

kál-

Ornative

Endowment with something

öre-

sár-

sē-

Partitive

Used for amounts

-nü

-nö

-ná

Perative

By. Used in oaths

te-

rál-

ö-

Preferative

In preference to something

vye-

vaek-

mae-

Privative

Without something

veri-

kán-

káv-

Protive

Instead of something

yir-

yiv-

yið-

Semblative

Marking the similarity of something

-ál

-at

-árt

Temporal

Marks location in time

gil-

gál-

göl-

Termanitive

As far as, or until something

-dá

-dö

-de

Vexative

In spite of something

ked-

úð-

há-

There are no real rules concerning the combination of case endings, except
that Lative and Essive Cases may not be combined, so, essentially,
whichever combination makes sense may be used.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 21/04/2017 16:39, Gage Amonette wrote:
>
>>
>>> I checked in Trask (A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms
>>> in Linguistics) as he was, among other things, an
>>> authority on Basque. He lists only _allative_ with the
>>> gloss: "A case form which typically indicates the goal
>>> of motion: Basque _etxera_ 'to the house' (_etxe_
>>> 'house')." Trask makes no mention of an alternative
>>> _adlative_ spelling.  I assume _adlative_ is a later
>>> hypercorrection on the analogy of _ablative <-
>>> ab+lative_, so _adlative <- ad+lative_.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Whether it is a hypercorrection or no, I searched on
>> Google Books, as  Mr. Kearsley did, and it came up with
>> a number of results.
>>
>
> Of course you will!!
>
> Some of them *are *from Basque, so perhaps Trask just
>> didn't include it in his terminology.
>>
>
> No, Larry Trask called it the _allative_ - it's the *same*
> case that some call _adlative_.  They are not different cases.
>
> Larry Trask was a respected linguist who sadly died of motor
> neuron disease, aged 59, in March 2004:
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/apr/08/guardianobituaries1
>
> He was, as you will see, an expert on the Basque language.
>
> His "A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics" was
> published in 1993.  All I was noting was that when Larry
> published the Dictionary it would appear that _adlative_ was
> either not known or was little used *at that time.*
>
> I *suggested* (that is what _perhaps_ implies) that
> _adlative_ was a later hypercorrection.  Of course, it could
> simply have been formed by analogy with the long established
> _ablative_.  Who cares?
>
> Purists like BPJ and me will prefer _allative_ while others
> may prefer _adlative_.  But I really don't want to get into
> a tedious discussion of whether _allative_ or _adlative_ is
> the "proper" form - it is as pointless as arguing whether
> _aluminum_ or _aluminium_ is the "proper" name of the
> element Al (atomic weight 13).
>
> You know how experts can be with terms like those.
>>
>
> I don't know what you mean by this.
>
> I was hoping that this might open up to a thread about the
> use of various local cases, not a quibble about _allative ~
> adlative_.  Sigh - I should've known better    :(
>
> Ray
>