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The formatting on that exploded.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 3:50 AM, Gage Amonette <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> >
> > No, Larry Trask called it the _allative_ - it's the *same*
> > case that some call _adlative_.  They are not different cases.
>
> You didn't understand what I meant here. I didn't mean that Dr. Trask
> didn't recognize the grammatical form that he called the allative, just
> that he preferred not to use the term "adlative."
>
>
> > Purists like BPJ and me will prefer _allative_ while others
> > may prefer _adlative_.  But I really don't want to get into
> > a tedious discussion of whether _allative_ or _adlative_ is
> > the "proper" form - it is as pointless as arguing whether
> > _aluminum_ or _aluminium_ is the "proper" name of the
> > element Al (atomic weight 13).
>
>
> You're quite right. This is a pointless argument. But I'd like to take this
> opportunity to post the extensive case system of Proto-Language A, the
> language where morphology and syntax are indistinguishable. It illustrates
> the distinction between lative and essive cases rather nicely, I think.
> (Please think of this as an engelang or something. It is NOT a kitchen sink
> conlang.)
>
> *PROTO-LANGUAGE A*
>
> *Noun Declension*
>
> *Basic Cases*
>
> *Case*
>
> *Usage*
>
> *Singular*
>
> *Dual*
>
> *Plural*
>
> Nominative
>
> Used with the subject of an transitive verb
>
> N/A
>
> ae-
>
> N/A
>
> Switch Referent Nominative
>
> Used with the subject of a clause different than that of the preceding
> clause
>
> án-
>
> ána-
>
> anál-
>
> Genitive
>
> Indicates relationship, composition, origin, reference, and composition
>
> ná-
>
> ela-
>
> -árd
>
> Dative
>
> Used with the indirect object of a sentence
>
> ana-
>
> -im
>
> -háð
>
> Accusative
>
> Used with the Direct Object of a sentence
>
> -áð
>
> -öl
>
> hál-
>
> Possessive
>
> Used to indicate possession
>
> -atár
>
> gira-
>
> -k
>
> Vocative
>
> Used for addressing a person
>
> á-
>
> ö-
>
> i-
>
> *Lative cases*
>
> *Case*
>
> *Usage*
>
> *Singular*
>
> *Dual*
>
> *Plural*
>
> Abegressive
>
> Beginning of movement away from
>
> -yál
>
> -yár
>
> yár-
>
> Ablative
>
> Movement away from
>
> -fer
>
> -fir
>
> -fár
>
> Abrectlative
>
> Movement away from a vertical surface
>
> -stel
>
> -stál
>
> -stil
>
> Adbaslative
>
> Movement to the base of
>
> -ger
>
> hir-
>
> há-
>
> Adcirclative
>
> Movement to around
>
> drá-
>
> drī-
>
> drö-
>
> Adegressive
>
> Beginning of movement to
>
> bár-
>
> -búr
>
> -bál
>
> Adextralative
>
> Movement to the base of
>
> -lan
>
> -lin
>
> -nil
>
> Adlative
>
> Movement near
>
> -frúl
>
> -thel
>
> -yirth
>
> Adverslative
>
> Movement against
>
> -ne
>
> -ná
>
> -nü
>
> Allative
>
> Movement onto
>
> -ár
>
> -ir
>
> -er
>
> Apudlative
>
> Movement into presence of
>
> -lē
>
> -lö
>
> -lö
>
> Baslative
>
> Movement to the base of
>
> -trá
>
> -tre
>
> -trö
>
> Circlative
>
> Movement around
>
> -kúm
>
> -kim
>
> -kil
>
> Defenestrative
>
> Movement through an opening in a vertical surface
>
> brö-
>
> per-
>
> lek-
>
> Delative
>
> Movement from a surface
>
> -ker
>
> -kúr
>
> ker-
>
> Elative
>
> Movement out of something
>
> -aen
>
> -ás
>
> -els
>
> Extralative
>
> Movement to the outside of something from the inside of it
>
> -ü
>
> -úl
>
> -el
>
> Hoclative
>
> Movement to the far side of
>
> -er
>
> -ef
>
> -el
>
> Idlative
>
> Movement to the near side of
>
> -sál
>
> -sád
>
> -sár
>
> Illative
>
> Movement into
>
> -ád
>
> -ind
>
> -ent
>
> Lative
>
> Movement to
>
> -ád
>
> -id
>
> -ed
>
> Perlative
>
> Movement through or along
>
> -vá
>
> -vö
>
> -vi
>
> Postlative
>
> Movement behind
>
> -der
>
> -del
>
> -des
>
> Priorlative
>
> Movement in front of
>
> -gel
>
> -gál
>
> -gás
>
> Prolative
>
> Movement along a surface
>
> -at
>
> -ilt
>
> -elt
>
> Rectlative
>
> Movement onto a vertical surface
>
> -inúr
>
> -inet
>
> -neg
>
> Subablative
>
> Movement away from underneath
>
> -pál
>
> -pil
>
> pi-
>
> Sublative
>
> Movement underneath
>
> -öhá
>
> -öhár
>
> -öhir
>
> Superablative
>
> Movement away from above
>
> -mál
>
> -mil
>
> fe-
>
> Superlative
>
> Movement above
>
> -úlf
>
> -úm
>
> -úr
>
> Supracirclative
>
> Movement above and around
>
> -váj
>
> -vá
>
> -vál
>
> Tenlative
>
> Movement as far as
>
> vir-
>
> bir-
>
> rök-
>
> Translative
>
> Movement across
>
> -kál
>
> -túr
>
> -túl
>
> Verslative
>
> Movement towards
>
> gál-
>
> -hel
>
> -hrál
>
> *Essive cases*
>
> *Cases*
>
> *Usage*
>
> *Singular*
>
> *Dual*
>
> *Plural*
>
> Adessive
>
> Adjacent location
>
> -áv
>
> -elv
>
> -úlv
>
> Adversessive
>
> Against something
>
> duil-
>
> duith-
>
> dyak-
>
> Apudessive
>
> In the presence of
>
> uöīl-
>
> svá-
>
> drás-
>
> Basessive
>
> At the base of
>
> eth-
>
> áth-
>
> thál-
>
> Circlaessive
>
> Around
>
> with-
>
> áreth-
>
> wú-
>
> Essive
>
> In the capacity of
>
> en-
>
> án-
>
> ön-
>
> Exessive
>
> Marking a transition from one condition to another
>
> -hī
>
> -hel
>
> -hin
>
> Extraessive
>
> Outside
>
> wer-
>
> wed-
>
> hrel-
>
> Hocessive
>
> On the far side of
>
> tál-
>
> dwir-
>
> fwir-
>
> Idessive
>
> On the near side of
>
> shál-
>
> shil-
>
> shúl-
>
> Inessive
>
> Inside of
>
> -te
>
> -ter
>
> -tál
>
> Interessive
>
> Among
>
> weth-
>
> wár-
>
> wil-
>
> Intrative
>
> Between
>
> -am
>
> -em
>
> -im
>
> Locative
>
> Marks location
>
> -din
>
> -dán
>
> ðáv-
>
> Pertingent
>
> In contact with
>
> -eln
>
> -iln
>
> -án
>
> Postessive
>
> Behind
>
> ðish-
>
> et-
>
> nel-
>
> Prioressive
>
> In front of
>
> mál-
>
> shák-
>
> shá-
>
> Subessive
>
> Under
>
> -si
>
> -dis
>
> üir-
>
> Superessive
>
> On top of
>
> -üna
>
> -üni
>
> stál-
>
> Supracirclaessive
>
> Above and around
>
> -eth
>
> -taer
>
> -vral
>
> Supraessive
>
> Above
>
> -del
>
> eth-
>
> -ást
>
> Terminessive
>
> At the end of
>
> -ien
>
> nev-
>
> háth-
>
>
>
> *Auxiliary Cases*
>
> *Cases*
>
> *Usage*
>
> *Singular*
>
> *Dual*
>
> *Plural*
>
> Abessive
>
> Lack of
>
> bár-
>
> bör-
>
> búr-
>
> Aborientative
>
> Facing away from
>
> sálv-
>
> shöa-
>
> dvel-
>
> Adorientative
>
> Facing towards
>
> ðin-
>
> rüa-
>
> rösh-
>
> Accordative
>
> According to
>
> this-
>
> thes-
>
> thös-
>
> Benefactive
>
> For, for the benefit of, intended for
>
> -lá
>
> -lo
>
> -ley
>
> Causal
>
> Because of
>
> -káü
>
> -köa
>
> -küī
>
> Comitative
>
> In company with
>
> rīs-
>
> ril-
>
> rál-
>
> Comparative
>
> Used in comparison
>
> sre-
>
> skrē-
>
> gáv-
>
> Deative
>
> Concerning
>
> me-
>
> mil-
>
> reth-
>
> Distributive
>
> Distribution by piece
>
> thel-
>
> ðil-
>
> ðás-
>
> Durative
>
> How long
>
> ár-
>
> ál-
>
> ád-
>
> Egressive
>
> From
>
> -áf
>
> if-
>
> -ef
>
> Gratiative
>
> In return for
>
> den-
>
> nev-
>
> jiü-
>
> Interative
>
> During
>
> esh-
>
> mesh-
>
> ishir-
>
> Instrumental
>
> Indicates means
>
> kel-
>
> kit-
>
> kál-
>
> Ornative
>
> Endowment with something
>
> öre-
>
> sár-
>
> sē-
>
> Partitive
>
> Used for amounts
>
> -nü
>
> -nö
>
> -ná
>
> Perative
>
> By. Used in oaths
>
> te-
>
> rál-
>
> ö-
>
> Preferative
>
> In preference to something
>
> vye-
>
> vaek-
>
> mae-
>
> Privative
>
> Without something
>
> veri-
>
> kán-
>
> káv-
>
> Protive
>
> Instead of something
>
> yir-
>
> yiv-
>
> yið-
>
> Semblative
>
> Marking the similarity of something
>
> -ál
>
> -at
>
> -árt
>
> Temporal
>
> Marks location in time
>
> gil-
>
> gál-
>
> göl-
>
> Termanitive
>
> As far as, or until something
>
> -dá
>
> -dö
>
> -de
>
> Vexative
>
> In spite of something
>
> ked-
>
> úð-
>
> há-
>
> There are no real rules concerning the combination of case endings, except
> that Lative and Essive Cases may not be combined, so, essentially,
> whichever combination makes sense may be used.
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 21/04/2017 16:39, Gage Amonette wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> I checked in Trask (A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms
> >>> in Linguistics) as he was, among other things, an
> >>> authority on Basque. He lists only _allative_ with the
> >>> gloss: "A case form which typically indicates the goal
> >>> of motion: Basque _etxera_ 'to the house' (_etxe_
> >>> 'house')." Trask makes no mention of an alternative
> >>> _adlative_ spelling.  I assume _adlative_ is a later
> >>> hypercorrection on the analogy of _ablative <-
> >>> ab+lative_, so _adlative <- ad+lative_.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Whether it is a hypercorrection or no, I searched on
> >> Google Books, as  Mr. Kearsley did, and it came up with
> >> a number of results.
> >>
> >
> > Of course you will!!
> >
> > Some of them *are *from Basque, so perhaps Trask just
> >> didn't include it in his terminology.
> >>
> >
> > No, Larry Trask called it the _allative_ - it's the *same*
> > case that some call _adlative_.  They are not different cases.
> >
> > Larry Trask was a respected linguist who sadly died of motor
> > neuron disease, aged 59, in March 2004:
> > https://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/apr/08/guardianobituaries1
> >
> > He was, as you will see, an expert on the Basque language.
> >
> > His "A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics" was
> > published in 1993.  All I was noting was that when Larry
> > published the Dictionary it would appear that _adlative_ was
> > either not known or was little used *at that time.*
> >
> > I *suggested* (that is what _perhaps_ implies) that
> > _adlative_ was a later hypercorrection.  Of course, it could
> > simply have been formed by analogy with the long established
> > _ablative_.  Who cares?
> >
> > Purists like BPJ and me will prefer _allative_ while others
> > may prefer _adlative_.  But I really don't want to get into
> > a tedious discussion of whether _allative_ or _adlative_ is
> > the "proper" form - it is as pointless as arguing whether
> > _aluminum_ or _aluminium_ is the "proper" name of the
> > element Al (atomic weight 13).
> >
> > You know how experts can be with terms like those.
> >>
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by this.
> >
> > I was hoping that this might open up to a thread about the
> > use of various local cases, not a quibble about _allative ~
> > adlative_.  Sigh - I should've known better    :(
> >
> > Ray
> >
>