On 07/09/2017 23:24, James Kane wrote:
> Hi all
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:14 AM, Raymond Brown 
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Allowed?  Who by?  We don't have an 'English Academy' (like 
>> _l'Académie française_) nor, as with some language, has the US, UK 
>> or, AFAIK, any other anglophone government sought to control 
>> language.  The whole point surely is that we're noting what
>> happens as people use the language, i.e. we're taking a desriptive
>> not a perscriptive standpoint.

OOPs - I meant, of course, 'prescriptive'

> ​This ​is a bizarre point to make. For me, and certainly in Standard
>  English, 'us saw they yesterday' is not a grammatical sentence 
> sentence.

It may not be considered grammatical by you or in some prescriptivist
construct called 'Standard English' but what I wrote, and you seem to
forget, is:
If someone says "Us saw they yesterday" we do _not_ understand this as
inversion and meaning "They saw us yesterday.  We understand as a quaint
dialect variant of standard English "We saw them yesterday."

Quite frankly, whether you consider the sentence grammatical or not is
irrelevant.  The point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make
was that most of us would understand it to mean "We saw them yesterday."

> It has nothing to do with being allowed by any particular 
> prescriptivist. but by the language itself.

That sentence _I_ find bizarre.

It so happens I've been skimming through a paper on English dialect
forms.  Here are some intersting examples, many I'm sure "not allowed"
by Standard English!  But actually used by English speakers - and that's
what descriptivists like And and me are interested in.

... so he told I he ’d give I the sack, I and my father.

...but he never interfered with I, but anybody else who came down here,
he ’d go for.

We snapped he off like a damn carrot! [object _he_ referent is ‛anchor’]

So he said, I could do with he for a fortnight.

I did give she a hand and she did give I a hand and we did help one another.

And it ’s still the Grasses’ house, you know, with we.

All sorts of long vases; I can show you some of they, I got photographs

...and when we been going up hill, he ’d go up the hill and wait for I
to push the bike up.

She used to bring old family stockings for we girls to darn and woe
betide anybody who didn’t do them properly.

They want I to go to Charlton.

[I'll omit all the "me and the boys did this" examples, as they are very

Him and I ain’t been fishing for these last six weeks.

Well, us used to be shoved out there Saturday afternoons and go pictures
and when us come out of the first place us went was to the Island
because the pictures we saw was cowboys.

And he ‛d buy my mother two love books, and them were a penny apiece.

I said, I ‛ll have an echo-sounder. But Abey and them had wireless,
which was better really.