On 16/09/2017 08:44, Raymond Brown wrote:

> On 16/09/2017 04:41, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

>> Touching what is now history (guess nothing wrong in publishing 
>> this) ... in September 2012 in a private conversation Rex replied 
>> to me when I mentioned gua\spi: "I like to think Carter got the 
>> word-shape idea from Ceqli." So that's it.
> Thanks - that's helpful.
> Rex would clearly not have likedd to think that surely unless it was
>  possible for Jsames Carter to have been aware of Ceqli.  This must 
> push the date back from 1996 to sometime prior to the Autumn of 
> 1991.


> Maybe I'd better find time to trawl the ancient archive fragments.

Which is not proving easy.  But looking through my own hard copies of
webpages and my notes, I found that in 1997 Rex posted a version of
Ceqli in which he wrote:
"[Ceqli] has been completely revised, due to criticisms from Rick
Harrison, Mike Wright, Stephen Rice and Jorge Llambias ... You will
notice that Ceqli is getting more and more like a grammatical
amsalgamation of English and Chinese, though the vocabulary continues to
be very international, because of the word-shape rules.  I find myself
borrowing words from Mandarin, English, Hindustani, Spanish, and
Indonesian for the most part.  I also invite comments concerning the
esthetics of Ceqli."

It's evident that Ceqli was a work in progress over many years.  I
suspect its origin may well go back to the same period that James Carter
was developing gua\spi, i.e. circa 1990/91.

Later on that same page Rex wrote "Ceqli began as an attempt to reform
Loglan and make it more user-friendly."  In 1991 (October IIRC)  Bruce
Gilson got together a group "o construct a predicate language of a
different type from those which had gone before" because, as he wrote, "
I felt that remembering which position meant which role in the
predication might be beyond easy memorization for most people."  I.e .
he was trying to make a more user-friendly loglan. See:

It would seem to me that in the latter 1980s and around 1990 it was not
only Lojban that was being developed from James Cooke Brown's Loglan.
Clearly others were developing loglanoids; some, like James Carter,
keeping to the predicate clause logic model of Loglan, others like Bruce
Gilson to make it more user-froendly.  Surely, if Rex liked to think
that James Carter got the word-shape from Ceqli, then it must have been
part of this 'loglanoid movement.'   I guess there were others as well.

I should like to draw attention to the last sentence in the paragraph I
quoted from Rex's page: "I also invite comments concerning the esthetics
of Ceqli."  That sort of sounds like something an artlanger would
concern himself with.  :)

Further, on the same page I find Rex wrote: "Since that beginning, it
has departed quite a distance, though the influences are still apparent.
  The current version of Ceqli has been Anglo-Mandarinized, and the
Loglan influence is much less.  It no longer attempts to be a predicate

It seems to me Rex's language, as it developed, was movimg from the
engelang vertex of the Gnoli triangle towards the center.   :)

I must rewrite the bit on my webpage about Ceqli.  As I'm off for a
week's holiday in Istria on Tuesday, I think I'll probably do this after
I get back and had time to think carefully about the rewording.