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Many thanks to you all for the suggestions. I appreciate the help.
Best,
Dan

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 6:19 AM Yael Netzer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Last week  in Tokyo (TEI2018) we had a presentation concerning annotation
> of liturgical texts -- please see our slides bit.ly/yaeln-tei2018
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__bit.ly_yaeln-2Dtei2018&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=OFFn2in_86BgxnvU5QIp1Xs79NkW_OpGw5XtVrXIIVc&e=>
>
> Part of the claim is that the special characteristics of the text cannot
> be represented in <stage> tag itself.
> In addition, there are many other examples of abbreviations, alternations
> (reading not what is written) that can affect the way we would like to
> present the text, allow searches or compare different versions.
> Most can perhaps be solved with types but it may 'miss' a wider
> generalization (or specifications) that can be said on these texts.
> Would be very useful to hear your thoughts on the matter.
>
> Yael
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 2:09 PM James Cummings <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> For comparison only, around 18 years ago I was involved in a liturgical
>> project http://cursus.org.uk
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cursus.org.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=oCytv2Zs9-a2YfXOa6HUByamHfmNp6k94DVsTMe9kgQ&e=> which
>> transcribed and edited a number of English medieval benedictine liturgical
>> service books. In those days we modified TEI P4 to provide custom elements
>> and referenced a full repository of the Corpus Antiphonalium Officii with
>> pointers. (Where we came across new antiphons/responds/etc that weren't in
>> CAO we added them manually.
>>
>>
>> The structure we used in that CAO textbase was something like:
>>
>> http://www.cursus.org.uk/edxml/c2120
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cursus.org.uk_edxml_c2120&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=yNLGN9dvkIgC9inMxlRaxr_9TV6HxuZ5TKCl0NUoLTk&e=>
>>
>>
>> ===
>>
>> <ant previd="c2119" nextid="c2121" id="c2120">
>>   <header>
>>     <usage ms="Alb2" code="01035000">[16r] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Bat" code="01035000">[11r] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Cdm" code="01035000">[16v] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Ely" code="01035000">[12v] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Evm" code="01035000">[26v] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Evm" code="01036009">[21r] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Hyd" code="01035000">[12v] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Mch" code="01035000">[14r] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Wcb" code="01043000">[50r] lauds-a1</usage>
>>     <usage ms="Wor" code="01035000">[9v] lauds-a1</usage>
>>   </header>
>> <aBody wit="CAO-C CAO-G CAO-B CAO-E CAO-M CAO-V CAO-H CAO-R CAO-D CAO-F
>> CAO-S CAO-L Hyd Alb2 Evm Mch Cdm Ely Wor Wcb Bat">
>> De Sion veniet dominus omnipotens
>> <app>
>>   <rdg wit="CAO-C CAO-G CAO-B CAO-E CAO-V CAO-H CAO-R CAO-F CAO-S CAO-L
>> Hyd Alb2 Evm Mch Cdm Ely Wor Wcb Bat"> ut salvum faciat populum suum</rdg>
>>    <rdg wit="CAO-M"> ut salvum faciet populum suum</rdg>
>>    <rdg wit="CAO-D"> qui salvum faciet populum suum</rdg>
>>   </app>
>> </aBody>
>> </ant>
>> ===
>>
>>
>> This was pointed to from the body of the individual edition with
>> something like:
>>
>>
>> ===
>>
>> <Day num="5" code="01035000">
>>         <rubric type="dayTitle">Feria quinta &punctus; </rubric>
>>         <service name="lauds"><rubric type="serviceTitle">In laudibus
>> &punctus;</rubric>
>>           <antiphon>&A; <xptr href="Antiphons" type="aBody"
>> from="ID(c2120)"/></antiphon>
>>           <incipit type="psalm">&P; Miserere &punctus; </incipit>
>>           <antiphon>&A; <xptr href="Antiphons" type="aBody"
>> from="ID(c2121)"/></antiphon>
>>           <incipit type="psalm">&P; Domine deus salutis &punctus;
>> </incipit>
>>           <antiphon>&A; <xptr href="Antiphons" type="aBody"
>> from="ID(c1920)"/></antiphon>
>>           <incipit type="psalm">&P; Domine refugium &punctus; </incipit>
>>           <antiphon>&A; <xptr href="Antiphons" type="aBody"
>> from="ID(c2503)"/></antiphon>
>>           <incipit type="psalm">&P; Cantemus &punctus; </incipit>
>>           <antiphon>&A; <xptr href="Antiphons" type="aBody"
>> from="ID(c2415)"/></antiphon>
>>           <incipit type="psalm">&P; Laudate &punctus; </incipit>
>>         </service>
>> </Day>
>> ===
>>
>> The benefit of this was there was very little running text per se in the
>> editions themselves. (We didn't care about psalms or content of lectio, the
>> project was more concerned with the order of antiphons and responds in the
>> particular services.) The strength is that distributed pointing which then
>> enabled us to generate information like the <usage> elements (stored only
>> because it was quicker/easier for display than looking them up on the fly.
>>
>>
>> Today, of course, I'd do this very differently but I would probably still
>> avoid the idea of considering it to be a performance text (with stage
>> directions, etc.). Liturgy isn't really my area of interest otherwise I
>> might have updated the XML after the PI passed away.
>>
>>
>> Just in case that historical view is helpful.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dr James Cummings, [log in to unmask]
>>
>> School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle
>> University
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list <
>> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Efraim Feinstein <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> *Sent:* 26 September 2018 06:11:16
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: Marking up liturgical texts
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Another potential option, depending on how you think of those
>> instructions (part of the text or an annotation): tei:note/@type=instruction
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 2:54 PM Daniel Schwartz <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you both for the examples.
>> Best,
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:43 PM Paul Schaffner <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> True in general for phase 1 texts (thank you), but in this case I
>> did some quick and imprudent edits before posting the file...
>> Couldn't help myself :)
>> pfs
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018, at 14:36, Lou Burnard wrote:
>> > The P5 version of this along with many other liturgical texts is of
>> > course included in EEBO/TCP,and thus readily available from the Oxford
>> > Text Archive and elsewhere:
>> >
>> > try
>> >
>> http://downloads.it.ox.ac.uk/ota-public/tcp/Texts-TEI/free/A72/A72693.xml
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__downloads.it.ox.ac.uk_ota-2Dpublic_tcp_Texts-2DTEI_free_A72_A72693.xml&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=wtulWn43gTlviJQj1G2GdZrxOiWzFevwKrr-XrKP5cM&e=>
>> >
>> > for example
>> >
>> >
>> > On 25/09/18 20:25, Paul Schaffner wrote:
>> > > Daniel,
>> > >
>> > > Since I'm quoted in your query, I'll try to put my text where my
>> > > mouth is.
>> > >
>> > > Here's a crudely tagged (P4-ish) copy of the Book of Common Prayer,
>> 1549
>> > > edition (STC 16270A):
>> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfs/tcp/S16270a.pdcc.xml
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2Dpersonal.umich.edu_-7Epfs_tcp_S16270a.pdcc.xml&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=Ot7FMX7OlGKzUOlE6a6P_Hi1O-l47jOzI8W0j471uHo&e=>
>> > > Using mostly drama tags, but a very limited generic tag set designed
>> for
>> > > the bulk tagging of tens of thousands of diverse books. An advantage
>> of
>> > > using a limited tag set to begin with is that it forces you to think
>> of
>> > > the overall structure of the markup before getting lost in the
>> detail...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > pfs
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2018, at 12:19, Daniel Schwartz wrote:
>> > >> I just agreed to help out with TEI encoding of a liturgy project. If
>> list
>> > >> members could provide links to examples of TEI used for liturgical
>> texts
>> > >> and/or schemas for the same that would be most appreciated. Thank
>> you.
>> > >> All best,
>> > >> Dan
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:51 PM Paul Schaffner <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> I have raised this question before, back when we were encoding
>> > >>> lots of variants on the Englsh and Latin prayer books. We never did
>> > >>> find a wholly satisfactory encoding for liturgical texts, partly
>> because
>> > >>> they are so various amongst themselves (what works for one will
>> > >>> not necessarily work for another), and partly because they can be
>> > >>> so various within a single text: the div-level organization can be
>> > >>> very confusing, without any clear hierarchy, with one labelled chunk
>> > >>> succeeding another without evident organization; within these
>> > >>> chunks, once finds a mixture of (often unmarked and often
>> abbreviated)
>> > >>> 'rubrics' (i.e, instructions, or narratives that serve in place of
>> > >>> instructions;
>> > >>> descriptions of alternative versions, etc.); readings, often in the
>> > >>> form of quotations or centos of quotations; prayers, sometimes
>> > >>> in the form of litanies, sometimes not; call-and-response type
>> > >>> structures
>> > >>> (antiphons); hymns; etc., all rather jumbled together.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Most of the time, when the format supported it, we opted for
>> > >>> dramatic tags: <speaker> for  "Priest:"  "People:"; <stage>
>> > >>> for rubrics (instructions); and <sp> for short direct speeches.
>> > >>> But this structure could not be maintained, since dramatically
>> > >>> formatted text would immediately give way to (say)
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Lectio IV.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> or
>> > >>>
>> > >>> PRAYER.
>> > >>> ...
>> > >>>
>> > >>> which might or might not be spoken by the same person who had
>> > >>> just been given a <sp> tag. Leading one to doubt whether to
>> > >>> create a new div at that point; or a floating text within the
>> > >>> currently open <sp>, or something different altogether.  We might
>> > >>> start tagging rubrics as <stage>, then find a rubric that turned
>> into
>> > >>> a multi-page commentary, for which <stage> seemed very
>> > >>> awkward at best.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> In a word, though we used the drama tags, and supported
>> > >>> their semantic appropriateness, the actual structure of the
>> documents
>> > >>> invariably seemed to make them problematic to apply, or to
>> > >>> apply consistently or confidently. I think in the end we would have
>> > >>> done better to have used a much more generic div/p/seg structure
>> > >>> -- though that has its problems too.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> pfs
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017, at 14:21, Lou Burnard wrote:
>> > >>>> Well, yes, <seg> CAN be used like that, to cover all sorts of edge
>> > >>>> cases. (Though you may find it needs to be wrapped up in a <p> or
>> > >>>> something similar).
>> > >>>> But if you;re interested in marking up the liturgy semantically,
>> why not
>> > >>>> do the job properly, using <sp> and <p> and <lg> for the various
>> > >>>> scripted parts, and <stage> for the "directions" ? Alternatively,
>> you
>> > >>>> could use <note>, perhaps with a @type attribute to indicate that
>> it's
>> > >>>> an instruction. Either of these options has the advantage that it
>> can
>> > >>>> appear within or between paragraphs.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On 03/04/17 16:57, Hayim Lapin wrote:
>> > >>>>> Hello all,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> A colleague working on liturgical texts (in fact, seasonably
>> > >>>>> appropriate: the text for the passover seder) asked how her group
>> > >>>>> might encode liturgical instructions ("here the cup is raised";
>> "In X
>> > >>>>> circumstances the following is recited").
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I suggested <seg> using @type and @subtype attributes as
>> necessary to
>> > >>>>> specify further.  However, my guess is that there are people on
>> this
>> > >>>>> list who have far more experience than me with this sort of thing.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Any suggestions?
>> > >>>>> Many thanks,
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>> Hayim Lapin
>> > >>>>> Professor of History
>> > >>>>> Robert H. Smith Professor of Jewish Studies
>> > >>>>> 2115 Francis Scott Key Hall
>> > >>>>> College Park, MD 20190
>> > >>>>> +1 301 405 4296
>> > >>>>> www.digitalmishnah.umd.edu
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.digitalmishnah.umd.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=gp1he2x69ZGdCo57-6gXdSSYjr6eCBjN2ghUDhZ4eCQ&e=>
>> |www.erabbinica.org
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.erabbinica.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=OK6TVc1YjAxT8k80m6KYari2GL_DAosXxAj68hIQrnI&e=>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
>> > >>> University of Michigan Libraries
>> > >>> [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.umich.edu_-7Epfs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=51pn8tyqFL9LEFVgV9Rd-R9dYDg_Ed-sGqIqkBF5_Fc&e=>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Dr. Daniel L. Schwartz
>> > >> Associate Professor of History
>> > >> Associate Director of the The Center of Digital Humanities Research
>> > >> <http://codhr.dh.tamu.edu/>
>> > >>
>> > >> Texas A&M University
>> > >> 4213 TAMU
>> > >> College Station, TX 77843-4213
>> > >>
>> > >> *Paideia and Cult <http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5813
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__chs.harvard.edu_CHS_article_display_5813&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=B1Bil3ldOEVa5Y29ccStMlnYUwCj1NIs2ZGujYkNrbo&e=>
>> >:
>> > >> Christian Initiation in Theodore of Mopsuestia* (Center for Hellenic
>> > >> Studies, 2013)
>> > >> http;//syriaca.org
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__syriaca.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=KaGyX3tXqfnebvqfMVdSzVsiwennmdT0-m3JL2NZs4s&e=>
>> > >> <http://syriaca.org/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__syriaca.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=Lf5yt_dwqNjnLx4TTtqaYUxGiC24pu7JK_gZAe-E7nQ&e=>
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul Schaffner  Digital Content & Collections
>> University of Michigan Libraries
>> [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.umich.edu_-7Epfs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=51pn8tyqFL9LEFVgV9Rd-R9dYDg_Ed-sGqIqkBF5_Fc&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Daniel L. Schwartz
>> Associate Professor of History
>> Associate Director of the The Center of Digital Humanities Research
>> <http://codhr.dh.tamu.edu/>
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>> 4213 TAMU
>> College Station, TX 77843-4213
>>
>> *Paideia and Cult
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__chs.harvard.edu_CHS_article_display_5813&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=B1Bil3ldOEVa5Y29ccStMlnYUwCj1NIs2ZGujYkNrbo&e=>:
>> Christian Initiation in Theodore of Mopsuestia* (Center for Hellenic
>> Studies, 2013)
>> http;//syriaca.org
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__syriaca.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=QzRmQWHC9YV0c5AgrobproqvWFdcgVpw66BsP8UwAQ0&m=S9TL5uJSZ4HizIkX3CYS90REZZTvmr8kKvXj60wAd6Y&s=Lf5yt_dwqNjnLx4TTtqaYUxGiC24pu7JK_gZAe-E7nQ&e=>
>>
>>

-- 
Dr. Daniel L. Schwartz
Associate Professor of History
Associate Director of the The Center of Digital Humanities Research
<http://codhr.dh.tamu.edu/>

Texas A&M University
4213 TAMU
College Station, TX 77843-4213

*Paideia and Cult <http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5813>:
Christian Initiation in Theodore of Mopsuestia* (Center for Hellenic
Studies, 2013)
http;//syriaca.org
<http://syriaca.org/>