The use of a note for this has one major drawback that is related to what Martin mentioned before: notes are free-text items, meaning that different files almost inevitably will use different values for the same reality (translated from the(?) Greek/original text in Greek/Greek translation/from a Greek text/etc.). And as a consequence, you would end up with a collection of TEI files that is not searchable since none of these values match. At least in my view, free text in metadata should only be used if there is no other way, and even then ideally only as a free text description to accompany the otherwise structurally stored data. So a language should always be identified by a code (whether it be BCP47 or ISO639) to make sure you can select all poems (in this case) that are translations from (here presumably ancient) Greek. In my experience, describing metadata in text is very much what people tend to do, and the teiHeader should have mechanisms in place to dissuade people to do so rather than encourage it (for instance by allowing or even requiring paragraphs inside metadata fields), since textual metadata are useful for human users, but detriment for accessibility.

Maarten

On 22 Oct 2018, at 11:26, Thomas Stäcker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Sorry, now also to the list.
Thomas

Am 22.10.2018 um 11:25 schrieb Thomas Stäcker:
[log in to unmask]" class=""> Martin,
from a bibliographical angle I don't see any necessity to refer to a different bibliographic item. It would suffice to note that your text is a translation from the Greek. This can be done by adding a bibliographical note such as <bibl><title>
Selected Little-known Greek Poems</title><note>translated from the Greek<note></bibl>. See e.g. the "translation note" in https://www.loc.gov/item/12032596/.
Best,
Thomas


Am 22.10.2018 um 04:51 schrieb Martin Holmes:
[log in to unmask]" class="">Hi Conal,

I take your point, but I think my unease derives from the fact that:

<relatedItem type="translatedFrom">

is ad-hoc (there's no such standardized, recommended or sample value for relatedItem/@type), while

<derivation type="translation">

is there in the spec, as a sample value. If <derivation> allows me to specify that something is a translation, why can't I specify what language it was translated from in the same place?

Cheers,
Martin

On 2018-10-21 3:56 a.m., Conal Tuohy wrote:
Hi Martin

I agree it is a little unusual to have a <bibl> containing nothing but a <textLang>, but personally I don't see anything wrong with that if it accurately reflects the (unusual) state of your knowledge about this particular text, which I think you said you know nothing about except that it was in Greek. My conservative inclination is not to add new syntax to TEI where it is already adequate (as it seems to me to be). Of course, in the event that you DID find out more about the text which was the source for the translation, and you had used a <bibl> to describe it, then you could enrich that description very easily simply by inserting new elements into that <bibl>.

Personally I don't find it too prolix or "roundabout"; but perhaps this is because this style is more akin to the way it would be encoded in RDF, which is something I've come to feel very comfortable with.

<bibl>
    <title>Selected Little-known Greek Poems</title>
    <textLang mainLang="en"/>
    <relatedItem type="translatedFrom">
       <bibl>
          <textLang mainLang="grc"/>
</bibl>
</relatedItem>
</bibl>

The clincher, for me, is that <bibl> and related elements already provide a standard way to encode many kinds of bibliographic metadata including the language of the source text. Personally I don't see what you stand to gain by adding another alternative method whose utility would be more restricted.

Cheers

Conal

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 06:46, Martin Holmes <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:

    Hi Conal,

    On 2018-10-19 11:18 p.m., Conal Tuohy wrote:
     > The element <relatedItem> may be helpful: if you have a <bibl> which
     > describes your English-language text, it could use a
    <relatedItem> to
     > point to a <bibl> which describes the original text of which it is a
     > translation (even if only to the extent of naming the language,
    with a
     > <textLang> element). e.g.
     >
    http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#index-egXML-d53e48477

    That seems a really roundabout way to do something that really
    should be
    quite simple, don't you think? I <bibl> containing nothing but a
    <textLang> would be a bit weird:

    <bibl><textLang mainLang="la"/><bibl>

    And it seems to me that <derivation> is where this should really go.

    I think I'd like to see the definition and of <lang> expanded so
    that it
    isn't constrained to linguistic contexts alone; and also I think it
    needs an attribute on which the language can be specified using BCP 47,
    rather than encouraging the use of ad-hoc textual language descriptors
    in the content of the element, as we do now.

    Cheers,
    Martin

     >
     >
     >
     > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 01:45, Martin Holmes <[log in to unmask]
    <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
     > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
     >
     >     Hi all,
     >
     >     We're encoding some poems in English, some of which are
    translations of
     >     original texts in other languages. We don't necessarily know
    the source
     >     text ("Translated from the Greek" might be the only info we have,
     >     and we
     >     don't have the resources to chase down all the actual
    original sources,
     >     assuming they still exist). But we'd like to include
    information about
     >     the language from which the translation was made, using IANA
    language
     >     subtag codes, somewhere in the header. (Each poem gets its
    own TEI file
     >     with its own header.)
     >
     >     I think the obvious place to do this is:
     >
     >     <derivation type="translation">[something in
    here...]</derivation>
     >
     >     The <lang> element looks like it should do the job here, but it
     >     seems to
     >     be restricted to "etymological or linguistic" uses, which
    isn't quite
     >     right; and in any case, adding @xml:lang to <lang> would
    apply it to
     >     the
     >     content of the <lang> tag itself.
     >
     >     Has anyone dealt with this? Do you have any suggestions? Do
    we need
     >     something like <origLang>, analogous to <origDate> and
    <origPlace>, to
     >     record the language of origin of a text which is a translation?
     >
     >     Cheers,
     >     Martin
     >
     >
     >
     > --
     > Conal Tuohy
     > http://conaltuohy.com/
     > @conal_tuohy
     > +61-466-324297



-- 
Conal Tuohy
http://conaltuohy.com/
@conal_tuohy
+61-466-324297

-- 
***************************************
Prof. Dr. Thomas Stäcker
Direktor der
Universitäts- und Landesbibliothek Darmstadt
Magdalenenstr. 8
64289 Darmstadt
+49 (0)6151 16-76200
[log in to unmask]

-- 
***************************************
Prof. Dr. Thomas Stäcker
Direktor der
Universitäts- und Landesbibliothek Darmstadt
Magdalenenstr. 8
64289 Darmstadt
+49 (0)6151 16-76200
[log in to unmask]