On Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:01:02 +0200 Adam Raizen <[log in to unmask]>
>In Modern Hebrew, I don't think that [b] and [v], [p] and [f], [k] and
>[x] are only one phoneme (respectively) anymore, even when they're
>spelled with the same letter, at least not anymore than [f] and [v]
>still one phoneme in Modern English. I'm sure that Israelis think of
>them as different sounds, and with the loss of dagesh hhazak it's not
>even very predictable which will occur without going into a lot of
>esoteric historical morphology that has little application to the
>language. Not only all that, but also there are a lot of foreign words
>coming into the language which don't have those as one phoneme. As for
>minimal pairs, I can think of [Sabat] "Saturday" and [Savat] "struck"
>(striked?, in the meaning of French "a fait gre`ve") where they used
>be the same phoneme. If they're not already separate phonemes, they're
>well on their way to becoming them.

>Adam Raizen
>[log in to unmask]

Well, that minimal pair doesn't really work, since _shavat_ is vowelized
with a _qamatz_ and not a _patahh_ - the [b] in [Sabat] is caused by a
dagesh-hhazaq from the _patahh_, while the /b/ remains a [v] in [Savat]
because it's a third-person past in binyan _qal_, pattern
_C{qamatz}C{patahh}C_. [Sa:vat]....or [SOvas] in Common Ashkenazic.

Although you do have a point.  A book i read about the history of the
Hebrew language gave the example of the minimal pair [l@hitxabe:r] "to be
connected", from the root HhBR, and the Modern word [l@hitxave:r] "to
make friends (with)" from the word _hhaveir_.  If Israelis spoke
phonologically correct, both words would be the same, with a [b].
Also, the minimal pair [b@roS] "in the front", _b-rosh_, and [broS]
"cyprus tree", with an elided _shva na`_.

This would all be so much better if Israelis spoke phonologically
correct, hrmph.
And they're always insulting Diasporans (especially Ashkenazim) for
"speaking wrong".
One of my teachers spent 15 minutes explaining why the _saf_ is
"ttipeish".  Please.  He thinks that _gimel_'s dagesh/dageshless
allophones were originally [dZ]/[g].  And he wouldn't even let me speak
to argue it, arrogant little (beep....)....

-Stephen (Steg)
 "yisraeilkidhm!  uz sudnihkhoorat wa'^lesna^ahya-a wa'waz nga'ush

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