Print

Print


taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>=20
> I tried sending this on thursday last week, but it never seemed to
> reach the list, so here's the second attempt :)
>=20
>=20
> ka=ECrfa=EC a gva=ECr

I like the internal rhyme, here.  What is your language called,
Tal?

>=20
> ka=ECrfa=ECdudjal:; i:ru djinra e=ECcavy
> i: xvua=ECc ry=FA's; rael:ia
> a=F2 i: xvu 'ryc; syel:ia
> a=F2 i: xvu ly=E8's; ju:ar:in: vaeren a ka=ECrfa=EC ct'a=EBlan:
> i:el 'syardris djin xvu ksy's; k'a:on; ta'aon; brenon; a tiron
> i:ruel ksy'seles tca'ra ge=E0lar:ei=F0 ga=ECnrui=F0 e=ECcai=F0es
>=20
> "Grandfather and the dragon
>=20
> When my great-great-grandfather was a young man, he travelled out
>   into the world.
> First he went west; there was only sand there.
> Then he went north; there was only snow there.
> Then he went east; there the mountains were too high and
>   great-great-grandfather couldn't climb them.
> At last he decided to travel south, on foot, on horseback, by cart and
>   by boat.
> In the south he saw the largest city in all the world."
>=20
> Orthographic and phon(etic|ologic) notes:
>=20
> Vowels with accents form a diphthong with the preceding vowel. If the
> accent is a grave, the unmarked vowel is the dominant one, the opposite
> is the case if the accent is an acute. Umlauts are used only to disambi=
-
> guate homonymous morphemes. Colon marks the preceding sound for length,
> semi-colon is a short pause like our comma, apostrophe marks breathines=
s/
> devoicing if placed before a sound and aspiration if placed after.
>=20
> /g/ is always hard, the /r/ is an alveolar trill, /u/ is nicked from
> Norwegian, everybody seems to mix them up with the French <u> in <lune>=
,
> which is in fact closer to the /y/ than the /u/, both are rounded, the =
/y/
> more so. /c/ is a post-alveolar fricative (or retroflex s, take yer pic=
k),
> /j/ is voiced /c/, the /a/ is more backed than mid, the /x/ is an un-
> voiced, velar approximant and thus not -quite- like in Scottish <Loch>,
> the /o/ is what the rest of the world knows as /u/.

If you've got the equipment, Tal, and I know you do! <G> it would be
easier for me to conceptualize this if you made a realplayer file
(.ra, not .rm!) and read it.  This is so hard to contain in my head.
=20
> The Interminable Interlinear, for those who like such things:
>=20
>  Cryptic abbreviations:
>     4           the number four
>     3s.+        third singular animate
>         LOC.g   marks located thing
>         LOC     marks location, more or less exactly
>         PAST    past tense :)
>         PL      plural
>         EXP     experiencer, see [*]
>         INSTR   instrumental (not comitative!)
>         BEN     bene-/malefactive, dative, catch-all oblique, see [*]
>=20
> ka=ECrfa=EC       a    gva=ECr
> ka=ECr - fa=EC    a    gva=ECr
> 4    - parent and  "dragon"

I'm sure you've explained this before... it rings a bell, but
why "four parent" to mean "grandfather"?  Are you numbering your
grandparents?  1) mother's mother; 2) mother's father; 3) father's
mother, 4) father's father.  That would make sense.  What do you
call "mother" and "father"?
=20
> "Grandfather and the dragon"
>=20
> ka=ECrfa=ECdudjal:;                  i:ru
> ka=ECr - fa=EC    -du       =3Ddjal:   i:   -ru
> 4    - parent -young    =3Dtime_of 3s.+ -LOC.g
>=20
> djinra       e=ECcavy
> djin   -ra   e=ECca  -vy
> travel -PAST world -LOC.moving.fixed
>=20
> "When my great-great-grandfather was a young man, he travelled out
> into the world."

Ooch... my theory was wrong.  Four-parent now seems to express parent
once removed three times.  Where is the concept "my" expressed in your=20
language?
=20
> i:   xvua=ECc          ry=FA's; rael:ia
> i:   xvu      -a=ECc   ry=FA's  rael: =3Dia
> 3s.+ approach -first west   sand  =3Dland.of
>=20
> "First he went west; there was only sand there."
>
Now this I like.  I like the asyndesis, or lack of connection,
or whatever you want to call it.  Welsh and Hebrew have that
laconicity sometimes in juxtaposed clauses.  The king came to
the land.  And its burning.  First he went west.  Land of sand.
You seem to add the more "explicit" material in the translation.
=20
> a=F2       i:   xvu      'ryc; syel:ia
> a=F2       i:   xvu      'ryc  syel: =3Dia
> and.then 3s.+ approach north snow  =3Dland.of
>=20
> "Then he went north; there was only snow there."
>=20
> a=F2       i:   xvu      ly=E8's; ju:ar:in:
> a=F2       i:   xvu      ly=E8's  ju:  -ar:e   -in:
> and.then 3s.+ approach east   high -most   -too_much
>=20
> vaeren         a    ka=ECrfa=EC
> vaer     -en   a    ka=ECr - fa=EC
> mountain -PL   and  4    - parent
>=20
> ct'a=EBlan:
> -=EB-   ct'a =3Dlan:
> -not- pass =3Dcapable.of
>=20
> "Then he went east; there the mountains were too high and
> great-great-grandfather couldn't climb them."
>=20
> i:el      'syardris     djin   xvu      ksy's; k'a:on;     ta'aon;
> i:   -el  'syard' -ris  djin   xvu      ksy's  k'a: -on    ta'a -on
> 3s.+ -EXP decide  -last travel approach south  foot -INSTR ride -INSTR
>=20
> brenon;     a    tiron
> bren -on    a    tir  -on
> car  -INSTR and  ship -INSTR
>=20
> "At last he decided to travel south, on foot, on horseback, by cart and=
 by
> boat."
>=20
> i:ruel           ksy'seles       tca'ra
> i:   -ru    -el  ksy's -el  -es  tca' -ra
> 3s.+ -LOC.g -EXP south -EXP -LOC see  -PAST
>=20
> ge=E0lar:ei=F0         ga=ECnrui=F0          e=ECcai=F0es
> ge=E0l -ar:e   -i=F0   ga=ECn -ru    -i=F0   e=ECca  -i=F0   -es
> big  -most   -BEN  city -LOC.g -BEN  world -BEN  -LOC
>=20
> "In the south he saw the largest city in all the world."
>=20
> [*] The experiencer (EXP) marks the subject, if an agent and animate
> of verbs of the experiencer paradigm. Experiencer-verbs (daft name but
> I haven't bothered looking for a better one yet)

I BEG YOUR PARDON!!  (just kidding!)  I use the term "experiencer"
to get the symbol (E), so as to avoid the symbol (S), which I was
using to mean "participant," because in modern linguistic parlance
it means "subject of an intransitive verb."  So many of my experiencer
verbs were transitive that I had to make that switch.  I can't remember
who suggested the term to me, but there is probably something inherently
wrong in every term I choose.  This one, though, in your use of it,
seems legit.

 functions as conjunctions,
> some experiencer-verbs are: think, consider, feel, hate, love...
>=20
> When the experiencer-verb only governs a phrase and not a new sentence,
> that phrase is marked with the benefactive (BEN).
>=20
> Example:
> sa:el a:r         u:  te=EC  i:a=FE
> I-EXP thinks.that you love he/she-PAT   (PAT patient)
>=20
> u:el    te=EC  i:i=F0
> you-EXP love he/she-BEN

This is actually very much like Tokana, which I think is patterning
itself in this instance after several active languages that put the
subject of "experiencer" verbs in the dative.
=20
> Valid permutations:
> 'S' subordinated sentence/benefactive
> 'V' experiencer-verb
> 'E' experiencer
>=20
> E V S
> V E S
> S V E
>=20
> tal.

Interesting language, Taliesin.  Again, what do you call it?
Sally=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SALLY CAVES
[log in to unmask]
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves (bragpage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html (T. homepage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/contents.html (all else)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teoreal.html (almost all else)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
"The gods have retractible claws."
                                from _The Gospel of Bastet_
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D