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At 2:23 am -0400 20/9/99, Nik Taylor wrote:
>"Raymond A. Brown" wrote:
>> If the old nominative forms had become cliticized, then surely there'd be=
 a
>> great reluctance ever to have evolved things like: 'He gave Charlie & I
>> some donuts'.
>
>I've never heard a construction like that around here.

You are very fortunate.  This side of the pond it has become far too common
(tho 'donut', of course, would be 'doughnut'  :)

>I've heard,
>occasionally, "between you and I".

Here it so common that 'between you & me' is often considered ungrammatical
by even reasonably educated speakers.  O tempora, o mores  :=3D(

I'm not saying that it *has* become
>clitic, only that, at least in my dialect, it seems to be going in that
>direction.

To be honest, I don't think this is something we can readily resolve just
be exchange of emails on this list.  I merely say there is no simple or
neat answer.  It's probably need a good deal of research as to exactly how
the forms of personal pronouns are used in conteporary, spoken English and,
I suspect, could result in something worthy of a doctoral thesis.

[snip]
>
>Clitic is, perhaps, the wrong word.  However, "I"-type forms do have a
>very restricted usage.  "Between you and I" sounds wrong in my idiolect,

Glad to hear it  :)
Not only does it sound wrong in my idiolect also (and my wife's), it makes
me squirm whenever I hear it.
[...]

>
>> And the endless debates about "It's I" and "It's me" would not occur - bu=
t
>> they do.
>
>Right - "It's me" is the normal, colloquial form, while "It's I" is the
>prescriptivist's form, which is ignored by just about everyone.  :-)

Not this side of the pond, alas.  And those who use 'It is I' have told on
occasion that my "It's me" is positively wrong.  Utter bosh, methinks.

It gladdens me to learn that in your neck of the woods the, IMO ill
informed, "It is I" is ignored

>> Not at all.  In the dialect I grew up with final -s is used for all
>> persons, both singular & plural, in the simple present tense.   This is
>> very common in southern English dialects (I grew up in West Sussex) and i=
s
>> still very much alive in the English of the coastal plain of south east
>> Wales.
>
>Cool, I've heard of that phenomenon.  Quite a bit more logical than the
>-s ending, actually, IMHO, since it makes the -s into a useful
>distinction.

I thinks so too  :)

>> The modern prescriptivist "It is I" is a muddled hypercorrection.
>
>I don't see how it's a "hypercorrection".  Hypercorrection usually
>refers to trying to meet a prescriptivist form and overshooting.

I mean that they are trying to 'correct' English usage by what they think
is the Latin standard.  But, in fact, *"(id) est ego" is just plain bad
Latin!  The correct form for English "It's me", French "C'est moi" is "Sum
ego", just like modern Spanish "Soy yo" or (Old English "Hit =E6m ic").

Ray.