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De: Brook Conner <[log in to unmask]>
A: Multiple recipients of list CONLANG <[log in to unmask]>
Asunto: Re: Conlang T Shirt - Quenya
Fecha: Mi=E9rcoles 3 de Noviembre de 1999 16:34

[ cross-posting I know, but it's come up on elfling, too]
FFlores writes:
 > Daniel Andreasson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 > > The proposed phrase is 'Lambelya nai hiruva sinomesse'.
 > >=20
 > > First off. Neither of us see why there should be an
 > > '-esse' ending on 'sinome'. Afaik, 'sinome' already has a
 > > locative connotation. '-esse' seems very redundant.
 >=20
 > I've been saying that from the beginning! Anyway, yes,
 > I think the locative ending is redundant, especially since
 > there's an attested example of _sinome_ alone in the mouth
 > of King Elessar himself.

That usage: "Sinome maruvan" - Helge Fauskanger cited this as another
example of an attested usage of "sinome" in undeclined form.

I guess I was thinking that the usage there was as a declarative,
i.e., in the nominative case, as in English, "Here! I am going to live=20
here." If "sinome" is *not* being used this way by King Elessar, then
(as suggested) it is the direct object. Either "sinome" is *never
declined*, or "mar-" does not use accusative for direct object (a
lesser irregularity) or there's an error in the text (as "sinome"
should have a long vowel at the end: "sinomee").

Me, I prefer to interpret the King as being pompous (as kings are wont=20
to be, especially in legend) and that the elves preferred an elegant
(i.e., not encumbered by needless complexity) language.  Therefore,
Elessar is using "sinome" as a declarative, and "sinome" is declined
normally as a noun.

Thus, "in or on here" - sinomesse. This also suggests that using
sinome as, e.g., direct or indirect object, is clear, and that subtle
distinctions in location (as in "from here", or "arriving here").

Generally speaking, I was under the impression that languages that
decline nouns as widely as Quenya (Russian comes to mind) have very
few non-declined words, even pronouns usually have different forms for=20
different cases.

 > > OR, is the phrase 'nai hiruva'
 > > already in a passive voice and thus translated
 > > 'your lang may be found here'?
 >=20
 > It's not passive. _Nai elye hiruva_ is attested as 'May you
 > find (it)', with 'it' guessed from context (it's Valinor).

Helge suggests that "elye" there is merely emphatic, as other
citations have nai + future where the future is suffixed by the
"pronoun." The "nai" plus future tense is described by Tolkien in *The
Road Goes Ever On* as specifically a wish.

 > > A totally different rending of the phrase might be:
 > > (suggested, but very reluctantly, by Maans)
 > > 'Lambelya tuula sinome'. Although this sounds like
 > > the lang is actually *walking*. A better suggestion

I specifically avoided suggestions of motion, as the English "goes" is=20
idiomatic - cf. French "se trouver".

 > > is the word 'ea' (be, exist). That would lead to=20
 > > 'lambelya ea sinome'. Unfortunately there is no
 > > 'should' or 'could' in that phrase.=20
 > > Just 'your lang is/exists here'.
 >=20
 > I like that. I'd just like to know if it's not too pretentious,
 > since I've seen _ea_ used only to refer to the universe, and
 > to Eru (in _Cirion's Oath_). But it certainly adds strength
 > to the statement.

Again, from what I saw on the discussions of the intended meaning of
the original phrase (which as been translated into many conlangs that
seem to do a great deal of damage to the English when translated
back), the sense of "Your language goes here" was in the (again,
idiomatic) American English sense of "We've got a spot here, where you=20
could put your language, if and when you have one."  I would thus say
that some sense of "could" ought to be present.

 > > I still think 'lambelya nai hiruva sinome' is good.
 > > As long as 'nai hiruva' can mean 'may be found' and
 > > as long as we get rid of the '-esse' in 'sinomesse'.

 > 'Found' would be _h=EDrie_; 'be found' is _h=EDrie n=E1_,
 > but we need the future tense to use it with _nai_, which
 > Brook Conner, the contributor of the phrase, claims to be
 > the subjunctive of _n=E1_, 'may it be (that)'. Brook, are
 > you there? What's your source?

RGEO as cited above.

I see the question on "hir-" as being, can it be reflexive? E.g.,
could the subject be the thing being found or the thing doing the
finding?  More specifically, can it be reflexive when used in the
"wishing formula"? As in "You language, may it be found here".....


Brook


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